The parent post is getting flack, but it’s hard to see why it is controversial. I have heard “women want a man who will provide and protect” from every single woman I have ever dated or been married to, from every female friend with whom I could have such deep conversations, and from the literature I read in my anthropology-adjacent academic field. At some point one feels one has enough data to reasonably assume it’s a heterosexual human universal (in the typological sense, i.e. not denying the existence of many exceptions).
I can believe that many women are having a hard time under modernity, because so many men no longer feel bound by the former expectations of old-school protector and provider behavior. Some men, like me, now view relationships as two autonomous individuals coming together to share sublime things like hobbies, art or travel, but don’t want to be viewed as a source of security. Other men might be just extracting casual sex from women and then will quickly move on. There’s much less social pressure on men to act a certain way, which in turn impacts on what women experience.
You’re probably consuming too much red pill nonsense if it’s hard for you to see why claiming that women who experience multiple sexual partners are mentally damaged is controversial.
The veneer of modern pop psych doesn’t change that this is just slut shaming, no different fundamentally from the claim that women who have multiple partners have loose vaginas. There’s no science behind these sorts of claims. It’s just a mask for insecurity.
Your understanding of the "anthropology-adjacent academic field" is wrong. There are so many ways humans have organized their societies and so many ways men and women have interacted, that to pretend there is some primeval hunter-gatherer society that generated all human evolutionary behaviours is silly. And a typical patriarchal construct that benefits men.
Making claims about "evolution" of "women" without even demonstrating a passing familiarity with the (controversial!) field of evolutionary psychology is a choice.
Because the post is making an unfounded claim about human female evolution along with another unfounded claim about modernity being different from the rest of history, which involves a ton of cultures and societies.
I think the claim that modernity is different is easily defendable. No society during the rest of history had such effective birth control, nor welfare states that removed pressure to produce offspring or even interact so much with family or other members of society. Again, as a man I feel like I am able to live a life very different than I would have been pressured into before, and this surely has ramifications for modern dating and relationships.
Nonsense. Chimpanzees and Bonobos are our distant ancestors. Have a look at how they operate.
From what I can tell, men have cause significant damage to women's psyche. Men that turn women into a commodity plaything instead of a fellow human being.
Women are human beings just like men, they aren't some alien species. Trauma hurts their psyche, not pleasure. If women were in a safe, supportive, mature society, some would be monogamous, some would be poly, some would be non-committal (but honest), and some would be totally loose. Just like men. In every case they would be safe to be who they are without abuse.
Instead, and this is where men and women deviate, it is not safe. Men will often kill or crush women, physically, professionally, and often at random. Women are not allowed to walk around at night because some men having a bad day or a wild night may not be able to control themselves, and most of society is just okay with this. Police in large swaths of the world do not help make anything safer, in fact they make it more dangerous.
The only reason women who are more monogamous can seem better off is because society does not make room for those who aren't that way. And there are many who aren't that way. There are many who are forced to mask as that way because it is often dangerous otherwise. At large, a prison for women has been created. I think that people may even enjoy how dangerous it is, in order to force women to seek the safety of a man.
Most of society doesn't make room for liberated women and it is heartbreaking. I will dream of a future where I can meet women as total equals, in all walks of life, without disproportionate power, where all of us as humans are free to be who we are in totality.
If you read journalism about why women are frustrated with dating today, one of the number-one complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. Your depiction that “women don’t really need men” completely misses the current trend that this thread is about.
> complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her.
No, that's not a complaint that the "modern" man isn't some sort of 1950s provider, it's a complaint that he does not text back. Everyone on the apps suffers from ghosting. It's exhausting because you have to be "On" in 100% of your interactions and texts but there's only like a 2% chance it will continue in any shape no matter what you do.
Even the "tradwife" trend is not actually harkening back to the 50s and a strong provider man, and instead lionizes a reality that never existed and is much more about wanting to check out of the rat race that harms us all. These women do not want to be a 1950s homemaker, they just want to focus on their hobbies and not worry about money.
I never said women don't need men, did I? Let me read what I said again.
No, I never said that. I said women need safety, and society is largely not safe for them.
Human beings are social creatures. Women need men. Women need women. Men need women. Men need men. We all need each other.
The system patterns of online dating cultivate undesirable traits in both men and women which result in side effects that no one would want. "Flakiness" is one such side effect.
Online dating dynamics create high abundance, low commitment environments that systematically produce “flakiness,” so the issue isn’t about women needing men or not, but that both sexes operate in a degraded safety/trust landscape shaped by platform incentives rather than by real world social cues. Restore actual interpersonal safety and the entire pattern shifts positive, with less defensive behavior, less attrition, less pain, and more ethical orgasms.
All people, regardless of gender, should cultivate a safety in both society and in themselves. This safety is liberating. Instead of controlling people, you free them. Instead of binding, you uplift. Instead of harming, you heal. This is the basis of safety.
You just proved my point. Men are undoubtedly stronger than women. Men are evolved to "spread their seed". Some men will take advantage of women whenever possible. Therefore a woman walking alone at night is not safe. Therefore a woman needs the protection of a man. You cannot change the behavior of every man. You can change some of them, even most of them. At the end, some men will keep being violent. Therefore a woman without a man's protection will never be safe. And this is already burned into their psyche.
> nobody is yet ready to have a serious discussion about this.
There are a ton of people that are happy to have serious discussions about how their superior knowledge of biology gives them oracular insight into the minds of women. These discussions happen every day in Discord chats full of pubescent boys, Discord chats full of young men, and YouTube comments sections full of older men.
Agreed, but this is also a male-dominated space with a lot of men with relationship issues, so objectivity goes out the window when it comes to women here.
I enjoy all the technical discourse here but the views on women are alarming to say the least.
>I enjoy all the technical discourse here but the views on women are alarming to say the least.
You are gell-mann amnesia'ing. The takes on technology or anything else are just as buttfuck stupid and off.
The other day HN was full of people insisting that there would be some "unforseen downside" of dropping the penny and making stores round purchase amounts to the nickle.
Meanwhile, the first cash registers were only able to operate on 5 cent increments because in the early 1900s pennies were "inconvenient"!
Similarly, it's extremely common for people here to insist that "sales tax in the US is complicated" but it just isn't. The entry level cash register from the 90s supports "US, Canada, and VAT" tax schemes and supports 4 custom tax regimes and that is treated as fully expected functionality and was the norm in earlier systems as well.
The parent post is getting flack, but it’s hard to see why it is controversial. I have heard “women want a man who will provide and protect” from every single woman I have ever dated or been married to, from every female friend with whom I could have such deep conversations, and from the literature I read in my anthropology-adjacent academic field. At some point one feels one has enough data to reasonably assume it’s a heterosexual human universal (in the typological sense, i.e. not denying the existence of many exceptions).
I can believe that many women are having a hard time under modernity, because so many men no longer feel bound by the former expectations of old-school protector and provider behavior. Some men, like me, now view relationships as two autonomous individuals coming together to share sublime things like hobbies, art or travel, but don’t want to be viewed as a source of security. Other men might be just extracting casual sex from women and then will quickly move on. There’s much less social pressure on men to act a certain way, which in turn impacts on what women experience.
> but it’s hard to see why it is controversial
You’re probably consuming too much red pill nonsense if it’s hard for you to see why claiming that women who experience multiple sexual partners are mentally damaged is controversial.
The veneer of modern pop psych doesn’t change that this is just slut shaming, no different fundamentally from the claim that women who have multiple partners have loose vaginas. There’s no science behind these sorts of claims. It’s just a mask for insecurity.
Your understanding of the "anthropology-adjacent academic field" is wrong. There are so many ways humans have organized their societies and so many ways men and women have interacted, that to pretend there is some primeval hunter-gatherer society that generated all human evolutionary behaviours is silly. And a typical patriarchal construct that benefits men.
You say it's hard to see why it's controversial.
Making claims about "evolution" of "women" without even demonstrating a passing familiarity with the (controversial!) field of evolutionary psychology is a choice.
Because the post is making an unfounded claim about human female evolution along with another unfounded claim about modernity being different from the rest of history, which involves a ton of cultures and societies.
I think the claim that modernity is different is easily defendable. No society during the rest of history had such effective birth control, nor welfare states that removed pressure to produce offspring or even interact so much with family or other members of society. Again, as a man I feel like I am able to live a life very different than I would have been pressured into before, and this surely has ramifications for modern dating and relationships.
1 reply →
Nonsense. Chimpanzees and Bonobos are our distant ancestors. Have a look at how they operate.
From what I can tell, men have cause significant damage to women's psyche. Men that turn women into a commodity plaything instead of a fellow human being.
Women are human beings just like men, they aren't some alien species. Trauma hurts their psyche, not pleasure. If women were in a safe, supportive, mature society, some would be monogamous, some would be poly, some would be non-committal (but honest), and some would be totally loose. Just like men. In every case they would be safe to be who they are without abuse.
Instead, and this is where men and women deviate, it is not safe. Men will often kill or crush women, physically, professionally, and often at random. Women are not allowed to walk around at night because some men having a bad day or a wild night may not be able to control themselves, and most of society is just okay with this. Police in large swaths of the world do not help make anything safer, in fact they make it more dangerous.
The only reason women who are more monogamous can seem better off is because society does not make room for those who aren't that way. And there are many who aren't that way. There are many who are forced to mask as that way because it is often dangerous otherwise. At large, a prison for women has been created. I think that people may even enjoy how dangerous it is, in order to force women to seek the safety of a man.
Most of society doesn't make room for liberated women and it is heartbreaking. I will dream of a future where I can meet women as total equals, in all walks of life, without disproportionate power, where all of us as humans are free to be who we are in totality.
If you read journalism about why women are frustrated with dating today, one of the number-one complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her. Your depiction that “women don’t really need men” completely misses the current trend that this thread is about.
> complaints is that the men they are meeting are “flaky”, women can’t trust that the man will be there for her.
No, that's not a complaint that the "modern" man isn't some sort of 1950s provider, it's a complaint that he does not text back. Everyone on the apps suffers from ghosting. It's exhausting because you have to be "On" in 100% of your interactions and texts but there's only like a 2% chance it will continue in any shape no matter what you do.
Even the "tradwife" trend is not actually harkening back to the 50s and a strong provider man, and instead lionizes a reality that never existed and is much more about wanting to check out of the rat race that harms us all. These women do not want to be a 1950s homemaker, they just want to focus on their hobbies and not worry about money.
I never said women don't need men, did I? Let me read what I said again.
No, I never said that. I said women need safety, and society is largely not safe for them.
Human beings are social creatures. Women need men. Women need women. Men need women. Men need men. We all need each other.
The system patterns of online dating cultivate undesirable traits in both men and women which result in side effects that no one would want. "Flakiness" is one such side effect.
Online dating dynamics create high abundance, low commitment environments that systematically produce “flakiness,” so the issue isn’t about women needing men or not, but that both sexes operate in a degraded safety/trust landscape shaped by platform incentives rather than by real world social cues. Restore actual interpersonal safety and the entire pattern shifts positive, with less defensive behavior, less attrition, less pain, and more ethical orgasms.
All people, regardless of gender, should cultivate a safety in both society and in themselves. This safety is liberating. Instead of controlling people, you free them. Instead of binding, you uplift. Instead of harming, you heal. This is the basis of safety.
11 replies →
You just proved my point. Men are undoubtedly stronger than women. Men are evolved to "spread their seed". Some men will take advantage of women whenever possible. Therefore a woman walking alone at night is not safe. Therefore a woman needs the protection of a man. You cannot change the behavior of every man. You can change some of them, even most of them. At the end, some men will keep being violent. Therefore a woman without a man's protection will never be safe. And this is already burned into their psyche.
> nonsense!
Proceeds to talk about baboons.
The person I replied to mentioned evolution, so it is natural to remind that we're also animal derived from primates.
Source?
> nobody is yet ready to have a serious discussion about this.
There are a ton of people that are happy to have serious discussions about how their superior knowledge of biology gives them oracular insight into the minds of women. These discussions happen every day in Discord chats full of pubescent boys, Discord chats full of young men, and YouTube comments sections full of older men.
This is sexist pseudo-scientific hogwash, and should have no place here.
Agreed, but this is also a male-dominated space with a lot of men with relationship issues, so objectivity goes out the window when it comes to women here.
I enjoy all the technical discourse here but the views on women are alarming to say the least.
>I enjoy all the technical discourse here but the views on women are alarming to say the least.
You are gell-mann amnesia'ing. The takes on technology or anything else are just as buttfuck stupid and off.
The other day HN was full of people insisting that there would be some "unforseen downside" of dropping the penny and making stores round purchase amounts to the nickle.
Meanwhile, the first cash registers were only able to operate on 5 cent increments because in the early 1900s pennies were "inconvenient"!
Similarly, it's extremely common for people here to insist that "sales tax in the US is complicated" but it just isn't. The entry level cash register from the 90s supports "US, Canada, and VAT" tax schemes and supports 4 custom tax regimes and that is treated as fully expected functionality and was the norm in earlier systems as well.
From what I'm seeing the boys are getting much more damage. Even your comment smells a bit of projection.