Comment by saubeidl
2 days ago
> The will of the people isn't there
The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it.
> Becoming more like China is not particularly attractive for former Eastern Bloc countries
Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money and then blocking any progress and electing regressive autocrats. In some ways, it was better when you were one of our (Austrian) colonies. At least we managed to drag you into modernity against your will.
> Chinese central government unleashed at least two total disasters on its own population in the 20th century - the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. It can unleash some more if a sufficiently unhinged person gets into power again
That's the beauty of it! They did all of that and yet they are thriving now. None of this shit matters in the long term. To quote Mao - "A revolution is not a dinner party".
"The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it."
OK, hence your admiration of China. Now I understand.
"Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money"
As of now, places like Germany are stagnating so much that they are called "the sick man of Europe" again, while places like Poland show enormous economic upswing. You can lie to yourself that this is caused by "taking our money", but what really kills growth in the West is bureaucracy running amok + deep anti-growth mindset of the Green part of the political spectrum. Which is negligible here, and which is both a self-inflicted wound in the West.
"and then blocking any progress"
How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?
I will tell you where this sea change began: in the "wir schaffen das" autumn of 2015. That is when the eastern half of the EU found out that Western elites are suicidal or, at best, totally unrealistic, and that we cannot simply follow them into their abyss of stupidity.
Ten years later, only fanatics will call the Wilkommenskultur a success. We were right, you were wrong, and you have to live with the consequences.
"and electing regressive autocrats".
Says Austria, which elected a Nazi president (Kurt Waldheim) and introduced the FPÖ into its federal government already in the 20th century? I still remember the boycotts that resulted from that move.
"In some ways, it was better when you were one of our (Austrian) colonies."
Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.
"At least we managed to drag you into modernity against your will."
Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history, and Austria was a massive hotbed of anti-Semitism since the era of Georg von Schönerer and Karl Lüger. Not to mention a certain unsuccessful painter on the top of it.
So thanks for precisely nothing. The worst of the rot started in Vienna, which even had the gall to call a neighboring capital "Judapest".
But you have shown your colors pretty well. Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.
> How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?
I am an uppity Slav myself, brate.
> Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.
Sure, just like in the Soviet Union ;)
> Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history.
Thank you for proving my point that nationalism is a poison to be overcome - by finally getting rid of our little tribal chiefdoms and creating a unitary state not defined by national identity.
> Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.
This is the way the world works, like it or not. The reason Europe has been doing poorly lately is because of deluded utopists thinking it isn't. It's the way the US operates. It's the way China operates. Only we in Europe think we're special little snowflakes and better than everyone else.
Comparing Austria-Hungary to the former Soviet Union is pure lunacy. I wonder if you have been reading Mencius Moldbug too much.
"The reason Europe has been doing poorly lately is because of deluded utopists thinking it isn't. "
So you think that democracy is inherently poorer and weaker than autocracies? (Again, this sounds like Mencius Moldbug.) We have had our fair share of autocratic empires in Europe across centuries, all of them are gone. Many actually collapsed after losing a war. How so, if they are so inherently powerful?
We have different problems, such as aging of the population. But so does China, which worsened its own demographic situation by clinging to its autocratic One Child Policy until 2016, about 20 years more than it was even useful.
We also have a bureaucratic problem. Again, this is not specifically democratic disease. Every big country requires bureaucracy to run, and it can easily overwhelm the rest of the system.
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