Comment by pedalpete
14 hours ago
We regularly get contacted by people in Europe who want to buy our product, but we haven't been providing support due to the cost of certs, and other regulatory needs (medical/wellness device).
We want to help people in the EU, but with laws like replaceable batteries, it's going to push us further and further away from being able to do that.
Our product is designed to be refurbished, but not user-replaceable.
At the same time, how many products do people give up on because of battery life, and is this a non-issue with future battery chemistries?
Do people replace their phones because the battery isn't good anymore, or is it more likely they've broken the screen, cameras, etc to the point where it doesn't make sense to replace those anymore? Or they just want the newest thing?
> We regularly get contacted by people in Europe who want to buy our product, but we haven't been providing support due to the cost of certs, and other regulatory needs (medical/wellness device).
I understand your point but being safe is not an option
> Do people replace their phones because the battery isn't good anymore
I just had to change the battery of my phone, and I wish that it would have been just a swap to do
> Do people replace their phones because the battery isn't good anymore, or is it more likely they've broken the screen, cameras, etc to the point where it doesn't make sense to replace those anymore? Or they just want the newest thing?
This is why repairability isn't restricted to just the battery. And buying the newest thing every year is kinda frowned upon here in the EU now. I'm sure some people still do it but most people aren't flashing their new phone around anymore. And phones have become boring anyway. The latest Samsung S25 is mostly the same as the S23, exact same form factor, cameras. Just a bit faster and a bit more memory.
But the government sets a baseline here to stimulate sustainability. I really agree with it, this planet has to be usable for a lot longer. And economic growth isn't everything.
We have to move away from consumerism for the sake of it and I think we're making good inroads here in the EU. Not to mention it means there's more money left over for important stuff like doing things with friends.
> And buying the newest thing every year is kinda frowned upon here in the EU now.
Is there any evidence that Europeans aren’t buying new phones at the same rate that they used to?
> Is there any evidence that Europeans aren’t buying new phones at the same rate that they used to?
I bet it is the case, not because it is frowned upon, but because tpeople have less money, the prices of phone increased a lot and the increase of performance and usefulness is plateauing.
Some sources say so, e.g. "Declining Replacement Cycles Among Consumers" on https://www.marketdataforecast.com/market-reports/europe-sma...
And https://www.unibocconi.it/en/news/disposable-smartphones-tri... has replacement cycles in Italy going up.
Anecdotally, 2023/24 all media in Germany was full of ads for shops trading refurb phones. Most of those talked lower prices, but some mentioned sustainability.
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> Do people replace their phones because the battery isn't good anymore
Yes. I'm not bothered about the latest thing, and every phone I've replaced has been because of two things: the battery has degraded until it's unacceptable, or it no longer gets OS updates.
> We want to help people in the EU, but with laws like replaceable batteries, it's going to push us further and further away from being able to do that.
We want to help people, but only if and when it’s profitable for us to do so on terms we decide for you.
> We want to help people, but only if and when it’s profitable for us
If s/he is running a company and not a charity, this is responsible, understandable, and predictable.
Of course, but that makes "help" a weasel word. They want to be able to sell their product, that they possibly strongly feel will help the buyers.
Yes, and that's exactly why we need regulations, and can't leave it to the market!
> A market doesnt want our products, we wont provide those products to that market.
The terms seem at least, largely influenced by the laws euros seem happy with. Regulation has a cost.
e-waste also have a cost.
And regulations are here to make businesses internalize this cost instead of letting society as a whole pay it out.
This is, I believe, the definition of a free market choice
And this is why regulation exists, QED lol
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Uh... yeah. It's called a business.
So it's 2025 and we're building more disposable electronics? I'm sorry but I think the EU is not the problem here.
That's an unfair representation of the situation. There's nothing about this device that implies "disposable". The EU is definitely the problem here. I think the problem is the EU loves legislating entrepreneurial creativity into the dirt.
Not having a replacable battery - a part that wears predictably and is critical to operation - makes this device disposable.
There's more important things than "entrepreneurial creativity". Not everything that can make sense as a business plan makes sense for the world.
We can survive without rings that allow us to mutter voice notes into our fists while walking around.
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Speaking personally, I've never broken/damaged a phone. Since the Pixel 1 started requiring removal of the screen in order to swap the battery, 100% of my phone replacements have been because the battery isn't good anymore. (Granted, I would've gotten a new phone eventually regardless, when the old one stopped receiving security updates.)
Currently trying to stretch a Pixel 7 until 2027.
> (Granted, I would've gotten a new phone eventually regardless, when the old one stopped receiving security updates.)
And that's why the EU also mandate a 5-years software support period (and I wish it was even more).
BTW this also works the other way: I find myself to avoid US products more and more because they tend to come with inbuilt obsolescence, or, for digital products, with dark patterns preventing subscription cancelling.
Regs aside; I'd more likely be a buyer if you offered a discount on replacements when customer returns "years" old expired ring.
> Our product is designed to be refurbished, but not user-replaceable.
Why?
I'm not who you asked that question, but I'd guess it's because it requires "proprietary tools, thermal energy, or solvents to disassemble the product."
It'd be hard to design/manufacture a device that reliably remains waterproof after a typical not-specially-skilled owner opens it up to replace a battery. It's really common to hear of people damaging watches due to water ingress after battery replacements, getting seals or orings seated just right isn't something every user is going to be able to do.
I can imagine some medical devices have similar sealing requirements, perhaps even more robust sealing methods since they might need to be exposed to regular disinfection grade cleaning with chemicals harsher then just water. I could easily understand why a company may design a medical device that its heat-glued together for sealing purposes in a way that can only reasonably be done (and redone) at the factory.
I killed an original Pebble when I Dremelled it open to replace the battery, and failed to hot glue seal it well enough and it got wet inside.
Having said that - I dislike this design choice for the Index 01. I can see myself becoming reliant on this right before they sell out to Garmin or whoever and tell all their customers to FOAD again. Trust is very hard to win back.
Design inherently involves trade-offs. Size, weight, cost, water resistance, etc.
I may not be a typical user, but I've run my last few iphones and macbooks until the battery gave up the ghost. I haven't really needed more features or raw horsepower for quite some time, so the battery ends up being the limit I hit.
iPhones and MacBooks can be serviced to replace the battery.
My iPhones typically get a fresh battery around the 3-year mark, or whenever the battery health dips below 80%, and do a second tour of duty with someone in the family. In all cases so far, the OS goes out of support and apps stop working before the second battery degrades.
I use Android, but this is me, too. I keep it until the battery goes bad or until it breaks.
In my last two phones I had to replace the battery 2 and 4 years in. One because it swelled, the other because it couldn't hold charge. Both cases I got a few extra years of usage from the phone. I'm in the EU, and I support this sort of regulation.
My personal experience: Electric toothbrush and razor. I especially hate the razors, you can replace the head, they could last a lifetime, but the battery is practically dead after two years. Toothbrushes are improving, the last one has 3 years of service and still work ok.
I guess Core use the same excuse to only provide 30 day warranty, using a loophole to avoid the annoyance of having to provide a proper warranty?