It is pretty much clear that the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it. There is no reason apart from that.
People still bring in bad faith arguments about private companies funding research or replication crisis. Sure these are big issues in current scientific research. There is no denying that.
While there might be an intuitive sense of less public research means money saved, there is no data or research (duh!) showing the impact of reduced public research.
From what we have seen so far this will make things worse - because for one private research is going to biased. It happens today but public research can counter that. Later there will be no defense. Like MAHA report making up BS sources using AI to push its agenda.
The irony in all of this is - the man pushing ivermectin during a pandemic - one of the biggest replication issue if not the big one - is telling others how to do research and people are defending him.
> .. the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it ...
The US spent ~1 trillion dollars on science in 2024, 2025 will be maybe 10% less.
The EU spent ~460 billion dollars on science in 2024 ... and 2025 will be 10 to 20% less.
So the problem I have here is simple. I mostly agree with you. But European governments, despite having more money to spend, spent less on science, and are taking back grants faster than Trump. Per-capita or per-GDP-dollar they spent 3 to 4 times less than the US on science. In absolute terms, they spent less than half the US spent.
EU politicians (and diplomats) are doing worse than Trump on this issue, not better.
This is the part that's always forgotten. Everyone's gleefully saying that this Trump White House is going to finally, after decades, reverse the EU to US brain drain!
Then you look at the facts ... and no, it's not. In fact it may accelerate under Trump. What the EU is doing to science funding is worse than what Trump is doing.
I mean, I get it. Trump is worse than Biden. Or, to put it a different way: the US is so far ahead of the EU in science that the major idiotic stumble Trump is turning out to be ... just doesn't matter. But yeah, bring back Biden!
If getting a science grant for X is 5 years of effort in the EU, it's about 2 years of effort in the US. Sure, it used to be 1.8 years and that sucks. But there is still a very large difference and obviously the expected outcome here, if we're being honest, is that the US ... will easily remain far ahead in science to the EU.
A long whataboutism and defending points which were never made.
"What about EU? European governments, despite having more money to spend, spent less on science, and are taking back grants faster than Trump." where have we seen this? Oh yes, the RW who talk about EU "offloading" science to US.
I understand this makes for good TV content where the focus is to shift goalposts to new topic.
I didn't make the points about brain drain or whether US will remain ahead. I only pointed out is that the real reason WH is doing this and those on the right gleefully clapping along. People defend this in bad faith. There is no way to know if this is going to be net positive. Numbers look fine on paper but the cost of say private biased research unchallenged by neutral public research might erase the gain. I am fine if I am proven wrong in 4 years and things remain unchanged.
But yeah, Biden something something and Trump something something.
It worked out well for Europe because the country that took over its position of leadership position post-WW2 (USA) was aligned with it in all ways (politically, culturally, scientifically, economically), and so (western) European countries could still enjoy all the benefits. It will not be the case this time around, because the next generation of innovation and leadership is going to come from China.
I think that is the most likely outcome. However, if the decline starts occurring too rapidly, I do think violent far-right (and perhaps far-left) paramilitary action could become a major problem, like in 1920s/1930s Germany. Tons of time spent lurking in far-right extremist communities out of morbid curiosity, and the spread of far-right ethnosupremacist sentiment on basically every social media platform, has me concerned.
> England “gave up” scientific and technological leadership during the 20th century. (That’s a tongue-in-cheek take on it, don’t read too much into it.)
Was forced to give up, due to the economic devastation of WWII, might be more accurate (though of course there were other factors too).
To be fair, it was pretty much the entire western world fucking around before. Brexit was the first shock but I don't think the world learned many lessons from that. However a lot of western nations are taking the US as a cautionary tale and will learn from US mistakes. So 2nd place might be lucky at this point (assuming we're comparing large trading blocs rather than just countries).
I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Imagine if Al Gore had won 2000 - America at the helm while growing increasingly wary of violent foreign interventions seems like the least bad path for Earth. (I am not sure if such a path still remains.)
China ultra-liberalizing and becoming a democracy and then the hegemon could be an okay path but I am not too optimistic about the prospects of those first parts.
It's popular to hate the US but I'd like to know what country you think would be better at the role of global hegemon. What country would you suggest would do a better job? Be specific.
The greatest era of prosperity expansion and peace in world history courtesy of pax Americana. The best decades - measurably - for humanity overall have taken place since the US assumed that role post WW2.
It's not just science, all sorts of conferences and other group gatherings are actively avoiding meeting in the US to avoid difficulties for international travelers.
The problem is that the current government's idea of being a piece of shit politically includes any sort of dissent, disagreement, or mocking of the administration (see the people who have gotten in trouble for JD Vance memes)
But how does a person know if they are a piece of shit, according to CBP, or not? Might just skip the trip altogether and have less things to worry about.
Not true. Border agents were always tinpot dictators, but they're awful these days.
I personally know white collar professionals who were turned back at the border for having a B1 visa instead of a TN visa for temporary work, while another person in their group was let through with no problem. They've been using the same kind of visa for a decade before this. And they were white dudes from Canada.
My Mexican friends said they're not stepping foot in the US for the foreseeable future, and I don't blame them. They have families and can't risk being disappeared and potentially killed because of some idiot border agent.
I too, enjoy having my DNA samples taken and my phones contents downloaded as an agent scrolls through 5 years of my social media history for wrongthink against Doritos Flamin' Führor
You its honestly really disappointing, the thinned skinned nature of HN is really shocking never new about it until started using the active view instead of the standard view. This specific critism isn't even really that political. They are pointing out the economic consequences of poor policy. I think its tricky to navigate though because I'd prefer not everything become politcal
Yes, I really don't understand why we cannot discuss the current reality like, well, hackers would. Like developers do when discussing design patterns or types of databases. Flagging content that should interest hackers ... like the perceived scientific reputation of the US ... seems overprotective and fussy to me.
"Speaking at the European Science Diplomacy Conference in Copenhagen, she did not elaborate on exactly how the US was wrecking its reputation."
For someone in the top position of EU's research leadership, she sure does seem to suck at explaining and arguing her statements, which should be the no. 1 skill of academics in research.
If you don't think a foreign diplomat's comments about a counterparty nation are potentially biased, we don't have enough common ground to warrant further discussion.
I always feel weird reading statements from the EU regarding this relationship. There's always talk of the U.S abandoning it's position, guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation. Cut off the U.S from the research? Retaliatory tariffs? Why is the U.S leaving NATO a concern for the EU, but not a concern for the U.S? The fact that these are not the top talking points makes me think the U.S isn't entirely wrong in their approach.
It's the classic breakup story, one party is just done and want to cut contact, but the other party is still hopeful and wants to find a way to restore the relationship.
The EU is not independent minded in the same way that China and Russia are. That's the problem with them. Their leaders don't want to act independently from the US, because the European wealthy and politically connected classes consider themselves transatlantic, and they want to keep enjoying close ties to the US, even as the US pulls away.
Personally, as someone that has heard non-stop about how horrible the US is from Europeans ever since I was on the internet, I don't give statements from EU officials much weight. It isn't anything new.
I have family that has migrated _from_ Europe to the US, they still seem to hold this attitude that they know what is best for the US. They come live here for a higher quality of life and income, then go vacation in Europe like kings, talking about how much cheaper things are, without an ounce of irony. Not sure how they do it.
You have to be a special kind of ignorant to try and say it’s a higher quality of life with a straight face. On essentially zero of any of the metrics which are specifically designed to measure exactly this does the US come out on top. Thats just a jingoistic nonsense you heard somewhere and decided to repeat it like it was a fact.
> guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation.
The narratives are harmful. What would retaliation bring? The EU doesn't fancy a winner-takes-all mindset. There is no joy if the US goes down as some sort of backwards kleptocracy. There is no joy if the US populace slide back into the gilded age. It doesn't make the EU better. On the contrary. It will be a loss for both sides. Hence, why they speak out (a little).
Abandoning the rules based order, science, equality, personal rights; it all will have devastating effects. For Americans, for everyone.
The US position in the NATO is an arrangement like the Americans wanted for decades, it enabled the US to profit greatly from it, and Europa was happy to have the US as a counter balance. Now, if the US wants to change the arrangement, that is of course possible. But we have signed contracts, blackmail and extortion shouldn't have a place. Can't share sources, but under this administration several powerful but corrupt people in the army even tried to extort European partners already. It is on track to become Russified in that sense, nothing to be gleeful over.
The point isn't to crush the U.S in retaliation, it's to show why maintaining a relationship is mutually beneficial. It's troubling that the EU can't produce any concrete reasons why that's the case.
It sounds more like a parroting of a popular sentiment as a conclusion, rather than providing a data-based assessment. What are the numbers? What's the real impact? How much lead does USA have over it's nearest competition?
That's the thing about investing in scientific research, especially toward the basic science end of the spectrum - the real benefit is seen years down the line after technology transfer to public-private partnerships and private industry. It can take many years to decades to see the long-term benefit, which is why it needs government backing. It's not sustainable for most players in the private sector to invest research that is high risk (with respect to applicability), long term, or both. This also makes it easy to cast doubt on the value of research being done now or recently - we don't have a ton of concrete results to show for it yet. The best numbers to look at would probably be emigration / immigration of PhDs, papers published in top-tier journals and the universities associated with them, and where conferences are being held.
I suspect that's a little tricky to quantify, so we're left with anecdotal observations. I would be surprised if anyone looking around objectively could say feel the U.S. was gaining any ground.
I recently read "Chip War" and it talked about an era (around the 80s and 90s) were american dominance on electronics (and economy) seemed in deep decline.
Japan was the next big thing.
But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend.
American dominance is sure not a given but with an almost century of inertia, all hope is not lost (especially compared to the alternative).
I get it. But what I'm saying is that the impact of a single misguided administration, while can be very devastating, is not enough to write off american super power status in research.
With appropriate planning and funding, the next administration can definitely reverse the trend.
What is US losing, relative to Europe/other countries?
I can't really think of many notable things to come out of Europe as of late... besides maybe covid vaccines but its hard to really say that when 90% of the wikipedia page for the "creators" is about research and contributions that they did (and could really only do) in the US.
You allude to it yourself in your example. People, from all over the world, were doing research in the US, because that’s the only place they could really do it. Now that this option is disappearing, the system will have to adjust and find another place. When that happens, US loses. Until it does, we all do.
The US might remain a leader country in science and other fields for many more years. The problem is that fewer persons will participate at this (due to less research positions, company lay offs, replacing AI, tariffs and other similar reasons). And this is bad for the people more than the country.
Countries shouldn't have outsourced all research and development to the US, hope they all notice this wasn't a good plan and that they all need to get back to it right now.
It’s difficult to compete economically. If the US has welcoming immigration policies for scientists and will pay 10x what your country can afford then you’re going to end up with a brain drain.
Recent changes in the US have changed that calculus but you can’t create an entire industry in the blink of an eye (and, of course, those changes can be reversed at any point)
Countries don’t outsource any research to the US. US funding lured many scientists to the US but this has never been seen as a positive thing outside the US. In Canada we call it brain drain. Now we’re capitalizing and the US science failing to strengthen our science sector.
Long term science is not at risk. Science doesn’t need the US. This is, however, a big problem for the US.
Don't worry, countries didn't do that. Academia is quite strong outside of the US. Still a loss of course!
When we talk about innovation, hn has a narrow focus on the well-known monopolies. That is understandable, because they are well-known brands, not some obscure innovative Swiss company in a critical supply chain. Reality is more complex than we discuss about, fortunately enough.
But the focus on the winner-takes-all is also a bit unhealthy, because monopolies are the anti-thesis of a free market. A free market needs rules to keep it free and fair. I know, that conflicts with the sponsored narratives--how else can you get people to justify gatekeeper siphoning everyone of in their walled garden?
It wasn’t exactly those countries choice, but since the US seems hell bent on sabotaging itself one can only hope the rest of the western world picks up this slack.
"In a parting shot before her retirement, the European Commission’s top science diplomat has castigated the US for destroying its reputation as a global scientific leader.
...
Speaking at the European Science Diplomacy Conference in Copenhagen, she did not elaborate on exactly how the US was wrecking its reputation.
...
The next programme, which starts in 2028, will also be more focused on European defence technology and industrial strength, raising questions over how welcome non-European partners will be, particularly in sensitive projects."
I am inclined to agree with her conclusion. But this is a political statement by a European diplomat selling her programme and asking for funds.
We can find better sources for documenting what’s happening. There is even nascent progress in measuring the harm.
> the US government has cut scientific grants to academics working on diversity-related topics, halted biomedical grants to international partners, and demanded universities shut down academic units that “belittle” conservative ideas, or risk losing federal funding.
> These efforts have in some cases been overturned by courts or faced opposition from universities. And huge proposed cuts in federal research funding may be blunted by Congress. But still, the reputational damage has led Europe to attempt a poaching spree of disillusioned US academics.
Sure. But the editorialized titled makes it sound like we have evidence of the damage. The article doesn’t provide that, it’s citing a political speech.
From the EU perspective, I can see why it pays to say the US is an unreliable or unnecessary partner. It may or may not be true, but cui bono: EU gets to reindustrialize and invest domestically. Seems like a great idea for EU and US both.
While America is appearing to be the abject fool here, it’s hard to take any of Europe’s criticisms like this seriously when even in the best of times they have constantly castigated us as fools.
They were calling us fools when we were inventing AI in 2015 too.
I think what we are doing today is horribly executed, but likely motivated by a farsightedness Europe can’t believe is there since we are all just dumb fools. (Collapse of globalism as a sustainable system)
I'm OOTL, but there _is_ a ton of waste when it comes to money we give out.
The article itself even says here:
> [...] the US government has cut scientific grants to academics working on diversity-related topics, halted biomedical grants to international partners, and demanded universities shut down academic units that “belittle” conservative ideas [...]
I'd say it's fair to question if taxpayers should be paying for "diversity related projects." The "belittle conservative ideas" thing is problematic, as that is totally subjective. However, I don't think anyone can say in good faith that most universities aren't incredibly bias. Having been in one circa 2020, it was not a welcoming place if you weren't firmly liberal/progressive. Of course I have to place my disclaimer that I'm not a fan of what Trump is doing, or the man himself for that matter.
New account because I’m a lazy lurker, but “diversity related” projects could be as simple as trying to balance the number of studies done primarily on white males vs other groups. Especially in biomedical research, the gender of the population studied has a profound effect on the relevancy of results.
By many measures, over 75% of studies have historically focused on white male populations, which for a variety of potential research/treatment areas, is important to control for.
Then it's subjective, what they define as a waste of money, this is par for the course when it comes to choosing what to fund.
You do not trust the current administration to be objective when it comes to cutting funding. I don't trust universities to be objective when it comes to funding.
I take any claims/studies from universities regarding gender/race with a huge grain of salt. There is too much room for bias and sensationalism. Not long ago there was a study claiming that white doctors were treating non-white babies with less care than white babies. However, the original authors made several mistakes and the study couldn't replicate.
Funnily enough, if you google percentage of medical studies that can't be replicated, you get 75% too :)
In the previous Trump term "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity."
Conservatives in the past have also tried to belittle research grants to justify eliminating them, such as "studying X about fruit flies." It might sound silly to a lay person but drosophila is an incredibly important model organism from which many discoveries have come.
The problem is a highly political, often careless or incompetent, and sometimes blatantly corrupt administration taking a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel to so-called "waste."
> "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity."
Do you have a source for this? How can you prove it was simply because it was "diversity related" and not because it someone, somewhere determined the budget needed to be cut because the spending was wasteful?
As far as I can tell, the budget never passed, so we have no way to know one way or another the effects.
I have never seen a government entity claim that cutting their budget wouldn't be catastrophic.
It is pretty much clear that the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it. There is no reason apart from that.
People still bring in bad faith arguments about private companies funding research or replication crisis. Sure these are big issues in current scientific research. There is no denying that.
While there might be an intuitive sense of less public research means money saved, there is no data or research (duh!) showing the impact of reduced public research.
From what we have seen so far this will make things worse - because for one private research is going to biased. It happens today but public research can counter that. Later there will be no defense. Like MAHA report making up BS sources using AI to push its agenda.
The irony in all of this is - the man pushing ivermectin during a pandemic - one of the biggest replication issue if not the big one - is telling others how to do research and people are defending him.
> the current WH has decided science has a bias against them
As the saying goes, reality has a well-established (left|liberal) bias...
> As the saying goes, reality has a well-established (left|liberal) bias
Maybe, but a left-wing bias at least allows right-wingers to speak, which is more than the right-wing wants for everyone else.
Note: left-wing bias doesn't guarantee an audience.
> .. the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it ...
The US spent ~1 trillion dollars on science in 2024, 2025 will be maybe 10% less.
The EU spent ~460 billion dollars on science in 2024 ... and 2025 will be 10 to 20% less.
So the problem I have here is simple. I mostly agree with you. But European governments, despite having more money to spend, spent less on science, and are taking back grants faster than Trump. Per-capita or per-GDP-dollar they spent 3 to 4 times less than the US on science. In absolute terms, they spent less than half the US spent.
EU politicians (and diplomats) are doing worse than Trump on this issue, not better.
This is the part that's always forgotten. Everyone's gleefully saying that this Trump White House is going to finally, after decades, reverse the EU to US brain drain!
Then you look at the facts ... and no, it's not. In fact it may accelerate under Trump. What the EU is doing to science funding is worse than what Trump is doing.
I mean, I get it. Trump is worse than Biden. Or, to put it a different way: the US is so far ahead of the EU in science that the major idiotic stumble Trump is turning out to be ... just doesn't matter. But yeah, bring back Biden!
If getting a science grant for X is 5 years of effort in the EU, it's about 2 years of effort in the US. Sure, it used to be 1.8 years and that sucks. But there is still a very large difference and obviously the expected outcome here, if we're being honest, is that the US ... will easily remain far ahead in science to the EU.
A long whataboutism and defending points which were never made.
"What about EU? European governments, despite having more money to spend, spent less on science, and are taking back grants faster than Trump." where have we seen this? Oh yes, the RW who talk about EU "offloading" science to US.
I understand this makes for good TV content where the focus is to shift goalposts to new topic.
I didn't make the points about brain drain or whether US will remain ahead. I only pointed out is that the real reason WH is doing this and those on the right gleefully clapping along. People defend this in bad faith. There is no way to know if this is going to be net positive. Numbers look fine on paper but the cost of say private biased research unchallenged by neutral public research might erase the gain. I am fine if I am proven wrong in 4 years and things remain unchanged.
But yeah, Biden something something and Trump something something.
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All I can say is let us all hope this is merely the American decade of humiliation and not the beginning of the American century of humiliation.
I hope it’s like what happened to countries like England, France, and Spain. You see your empire collapse but the country itself remains intact.
England “gave up” scientific and technological leadership during the 20th century. (That’s a tongue-in-cheek take on it, don’t read too much into it.)
It worked out well for Europe because the country that took over its position of leadership position post-WW2 (USA) was aligned with it in all ways (politically, culturally, scientifically, economically), and so (western) European countries could still enjoy all the benefits. It will not be the case this time around, because the next generation of innovation and leadership is going to come from China.
I think that is the most likely outcome. However, if the decline starts occurring too rapidly, I do think violent far-right (and perhaps far-left) paramilitary action could become a major problem, like in 1920s/1930s Germany. Tons of time spent lurking in far-right extremist communities out of morbid curiosity, and the spread of far-right ethnosupremacist sentiment on basically every social media platform, has me concerned.
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Yes but Spain, England, and France all had decade long declines that reversed. Except you know, at the end. When it didn't reverse.
We are witnessing the end of... something. Is it the end of the Roman Republic or is this the end of the Roman Empire?
Two very different situations despite being so politically fraught and full of change.
> England “gave up” scientific and technological leadership during the 20th century. (That’s a tongue-in-cheek take on it, don’t read too much into it.)
Was forced to give up, due to the economic devastation of WWII, might be more accurate (though of course there were other factors too).
It might be what it takes though, 2nd place (if that), to get the U.S. to stop fucking around.
Usually the opposite of what happens to a power in decline
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All I have to say is, don’t blame me. I am an American and didn’t vote for this bullsh*t. Leave me out when you enslave the rest of the Americans lol
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To be fair, it was pretty much the entire western world fucking around before. Brexit was the first shock but I don't think the world learned many lessons from that. However a lot of western nations are taking the US as a cautionary tale and will learn from US mistakes. So 2nd place might be lucky at this point (assuming we're comparing large trading blocs rather than just countries).
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I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Imagine if Al Gore had won 2000 - America at the helm while growing increasingly wary of violent foreign interventions seems like the least bad path for Earth. (I am not sure if such a path still remains.)
China ultra-liberalizing and becoming a democracy and then the hegemon could be an okay path but I am not too optimistic about the prospects of those first parts.
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As bad as American domination is, wnat's coming after is might easily be worse.
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The US has screwed up but to state we've been nothing but bad since 49 is a genuinely revisionist take.
I guess I respect you being honestly pro-war. Not sure that’s what everyone wants.
It's popular to hate the US but I'd like to know what country you think would be better at the role of global hegemon. What country would you suggest would do a better job? Be specific.
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The greatest era of prosperity expansion and peace in world history courtesy of pax Americana. The best decades - measurably - for humanity overall have taken place since the US assumed that role post WW2.
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It's not just science, all sorts of conferences and other group gatherings are actively avoiding meeting in the US to avoid difficulties for international travelers.
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The problem is that the current government's idea of being a piece of shit politically includes any sort of dissent, disagreement, or mocking of the administration (see the people who have gotten in trouble for JD Vance memes)
But how does a person know if they are a piece of shit, according to CBP, or not? Might just skip the trip altogether and have less things to worry about.
Not true. Border agents were always tinpot dictators, but they're awful these days.
I personally know white collar professionals who were turned back at the border for having a B1 visa instead of a TN visa for temporary work, while another person in their group was let through with no problem. They've been using the same kind of visa for a decade before this. And they were white dudes from Canada.
My Mexican friends said they're not stepping foot in the US for the foreseeable future, and I don't blame them. They have families and can't risk being disappeared and potentially killed because of some idiot border agent.
I too, enjoy having my DNA samples taken and my phones contents downloaded as an agent scrolls through 5 years of my social media history for wrongthink against Doritos Flamin' Führor
The reality of any extra difficulty does not matter, the perception and response are the reality we deal with
That's a cute idea. Are you sure it's aligned with the reality?
> ... and have white skin
You forgot that. It's not that black and white (pun fully intended). But it's not not that black and white either.
What an embarrassing era for America.
Sad state of affairs that this gets flagged. Any critical coverage of the American regime is censored.
You its honestly really disappointing, the thinned skinned nature of HN is really shocking never new about it until started using the active view instead of the standard view. This specific critism isn't even really that political. They are pointing out the economic consequences of poor policy. I think its tricky to navigate though because I'd prefer not everything become politcal
Yes, I really don't understand why we cannot discuss the current reality like, well, hackers would. Like developers do when discussing design patterns or types of databases. Flagging content that should interest hackers ... like the perceived scientific reputation of the US ... seems overprotective and fussy to me.
"says chief EU research diplomat" -- leaving off half the sentence sure does change the quote.
Also from the article:
"Speaking at the European Science Diplomacy Conference in Copenhagen, she did not elaborate on exactly how the US was wrecking its reputation."
For someone in the top position of EU's research leadership, she sure does seem to suck at explaining and arguing her statements, which should be the no. 1 skill of academics in research.
We have another article about the funding thing on the front page, so it's not a hard pattern to work out?
I’m not sure it does. Particularly since the diplomat is outgoing
If you don't think a foreign diplomat's comments about a counterparty nation are potentially biased, we don't have enough common ground to warrant further discussion.
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Does it?
I always feel weird reading statements from the EU regarding this relationship. There's always talk of the U.S abandoning it's position, guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation. Cut off the U.S from the research? Retaliatory tariffs? Why is the U.S leaving NATO a concern for the EU, but not a concern for the U.S? The fact that these are not the top talking points makes me think the U.S isn't entirely wrong in their approach.
It's the classic breakup story, one party is just done and want to cut contact, but the other party is still hopeful and wants to find a way to restore the relationship. The EU is not independent minded in the same way that China and Russia are. That's the problem with them. Their leaders don't want to act independently from the US, because the European wealthy and politically connected classes consider themselves transatlantic, and they want to keep enjoying close ties to the US, even as the US pulls away.
Personally, as someone that has heard non-stop about how horrible the US is from Europeans ever since I was on the internet, I don't give statements from EU officials much weight. It isn't anything new.
I have family that has migrated _from_ Europe to the US, they still seem to hold this attitude that they know what is best for the US. They come live here for a higher quality of life and income, then go vacation in Europe like kings, talking about how much cheaper things are, without an ounce of irony. Not sure how they do it.
You have to be a special kind of ignorant to try and say it’s a higher quality of life with a straight face. On essentially zero of any of the metrics which are specifically designed to measure exactly this does the US come out on top. Thats just a jingoistic nonsense you heard somewhere and decided to repeat it like it was a fact.
The narratives are harmful. What would retaliation bring? The EU doesn't fancy a winner-takes-all mindset. There is no joy if the US goes down as some sort of backwards kleptocracy. There is no joy if the US populace slide back into the gilded age. It doesn't make the EU better. On the contrary. It will be a loss for both sides. Hence, why they speak out (a little).
Abandoning the rules based order, science, equality, personal rights; it all will have devastating effects. For Americans, for everyone.
The US position in the NATO is an arrangement like the Americans wanted for decades, it enabled the US to profit greatly from it, and Europa was happy to have the US as a counter balance. Now, if the US wants to change the arrangement, that is of course possible. But we have signed contracts, blackmail and extortion shouldn't have a place. Can't share sources, but under this administration several powerful but corrupt people in the army even tried to extort European partners already. It is on track to become Russified in that sense, nothing to be gleeful over.
The point isn't to crush the U.S in retaliation, it's to show why maintaining a relationship is mutually beneficial. It's troubling that the EU can't produce any concrete reasons why that's the case.
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It sounds more like a parroting of a popular sentiment as a conclusion, rather than providing a data-based assessment. What are the numbers? What's the real impact? How much lead does USA have over it's nearest competition?
The U.S. Is Funding Fewer Grants in Every Area of Science and Medicine
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/12/02/upshot/trump-...
Far too early to know the exact long term effects but it’s definitely happening.
Is there any metric saying what the proper amount is or is it always “more”? Is there a point where others should do more and the US less?
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For the year ending May 2024, China released more scientific papers -in English- than the US [1]. We have been on a decline for a while.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...
[edit] I think that list is total, not just for a single year. Still telling though.
USA has a huge lead in the deployed technologies such as chips, software and defence tech. Research papers might not be a good metric.
That's the thing about investing in scientific research, especially toward the basic science end of the spectrum - the real benefit is seen years down the line after technology transfer to public-private partnerships and private industry. It can take many years to decades to see the long-term benefit, which is why it needs government backing. It's not sustainable for most players in the private sector to invest research that is high risk (with respect to applicability), long term, or both. This also makes it easy to cast doubt on the value of research being done now or recently - we don't have a ton of concrete results to show for it yet. The best numbers to look at would probably be emigration / immigration of PhDs, papers published in top-tier journals and the universities associated with them, and where conferences are being held.
I suspect that's a little tricky to quantify, so we're left with anecdotal observations. I would be surprised if anyone looking around objectively could say feel the U.S. was gaining any ground.
Seems like a lot of people were getting a lot of easy money, and now they are unhappy.
>Seems like a lot of people were getting a lot of easy money, and now they are unhappy.
who? can you be more specific than your generic "scientists" response?
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Related:
The U.S. Is Funding Fewer Grants in Every Area of Science and Medicine
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46355077
I recently read "Chip War" and it talked about an era (around the 80s and 90s) were american dominance on electronics (and economy) seemed in deep decline.
Japan was the next big thing.
But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend.
American dominance is sure not a given but with an almost century of inertia, all hope is not lost (especially compared to the alternative).
> But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend.
Well that's the key. The current administration is doing its best to sabotage science.
I get it. But what I'm saying is that the impact of a single misguided administration, while can be very devastating, is not enough to write off american super power status in research.
With appropriate planning and funding, the next administration can definitely reverse the trend.
The current administration is braking hard against the inertia.
Even the concerted effort of a competent administration wouldn't be enough to cancel a system that's a century in the making.
Keyword: competent.
For a country thats whole personallity is "winning" and that lates losers, The USA is very good a setting itself up to lose every race.
What is US losing, relative to Europe/other countries?
I can't really think of many notable things to come out of Europe as of late... besides maybe covid vaccines but its hard to really say that when 90% of the wikipedia page for the "creators" is about research and contributions that they did (and could really only do) in the US.
You allude to it yourself in your example. People, from all over the world, were doing research in the US, because that’s the only place they could really do it. Now that this option is disappearing, the system will have to adjust and find another place. When that happens, US loses. Until it does, we all do.
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The US might remain a leader country in science and other fields for many more years. The problem is that fewer persons will participate at this (due to less research positions, company lay offs, replacing AI, tariffs and other similar reasons). And this is bad for the people more than the country.
It’ll be interesting to see how this shakes out in the next 3 years or so.
> Signe Ratso, who is in charge of negotiating global access to the EU’s €93.5 billion Horizon Europe research and innovation programme
My thoughts after witnessing Horizon Europe in action when I worked at a hardware/materials research-ish company in Sweden:
- So much pork, so much product concept cosplay.
- All of these grandiose pointless abstract "projects".
- Gotta have like 10+ institutions/companies from lots of different countries involved in each grandiose project, leading to insane overheads.
Just give the institutions/companies (demand equity?) funds instead - stop with the stupid cosplay.
Europe needs to be smarter than the US in how to make this more efficient. Right now that shouldn't that hard.
Countries shouldn't have outsourced all research and development to the US, hope they all notice this wasn't a good plan and that they all need to get back to it right now.
Countries didn't "outsource" it, the US competed for and dominated this extremely high value-added portion of the global economy.
It's a complete own-goal for us to give up what we fought so hard for.
It’s difficult to compete economically. If the US has welcoming immigration policies for scientists and will pay 10x what your country can afford then you’re going to end up with a brain drain.
Recent changes in the US have changed that calculus but you can’t create an entire industry in the blink of an eye (and, of course, those changes can be reversed at any point)
What the US needs first and foremost is a better future for its own citizens. We have abandoned our youth to unemployment and underemployment.
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Countries don’t outsource any research to the US. US funding lured many scientists to the US but this has never been seen as a positive thing outside the US. In Canada we call it brain drain. Now we’re capitalizing and the US science failing to strengthen our science sector.
Long term science is not at risk. Science doesn’t need the US. This is, however, a big problem for the US.
Don't worry, countries didn't do that. Academia is quite strong outside of the US. Still a loss of course!
When we talk about innovation, hn has a narrow focus on the well-known monopolies. That is understandable, because they are well-known brands, not some obscure innovative Swiss company in a critical supply chain. Reality is more complex than we discuss about, fortunately enough.
But the focus on the winner-takes-all is also a bit unhealthy, because monopolies are the anti-thesis of a free market. A free market needs rules to keep it free and fair. I know, that conflicts with the sponsored narratives--how else can you get people to justify gatekeeper siphoning everyone of in their walled garden?
It wasn’t exactly those countries choice, but since the US seems hell bent on sabotaging itself one can only hope the rest of the western world picks up this slack.
"In a parting shot before her retirement, the European Commission’s top science diplomat has castigated the US for destroying its reputation as a global scientific leader.
...
Speaking at the European Science Diplomacy Conference in Copenhagen, she did not elaborate on exactly how the US was wrecking its reputation.
...
The next programme, which starts in 2028, will also be more focused on European defence technology and industrial strength, raising questions over how welcome non-European partners will be, particularly in sensitive projects."
I am inclined to agree with her conclusion. But this is a political statement by a European diplomat selling her programme and asking for funds.
We can find better sources for documenting what’s happening. There is even nascent progress in measuring the harm.
Not entirely baseless though :
> the US government has cut scientific grants to academics working on diversity-related topics, halted biomedical grants to international partners, and demanded universities shut down academic units that “belittle” conservative ideas, or risk losing federal funding.
> These efforts have in some cases been overturned by courts or faced opposition from universities. And huge proposed cuts in federal research funding may be blunted by Congress. But still, the reputational damage has led Europe to attempt a poaching spree of disillusioned US academics.
Sure. But the editorialized titled makes it sound like we have evidence of the damage. The article doesn’t provide that, it’s citing a political speech.
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From the EU perspective, I can see why it pays to say the US is an unreliable or unnecessary partner. It may or may not be true, but cui bono: EU gets to reindustrialize and invest domestically. Seems like a great idea for EU and US both.
What makes you think the U.S continues to be a reliable partner for anyone anywhere?
The US doesn't have any partners anymore, except for some small countries like Hungary and Israel.
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While America is appearing to be the abject fool here, it’s hard to take any of Europe’s criticisms like this seriously when even in the best of times they have constantly castigated us as fools.
They were calling us fools when we were inventing AI in 2015 too.
I think what we are doing today is horribly executed, but likely motivated by a farsightedness Europe can’t believe is there since we are all just dumb fools. (Collapse of globalism as a sustainable system)
>They were calling us fools when we were inventing AI in 2015 too.
were they? You invented AI in 2015? My Nokia had predictive text over 20 years ago
> but likely motivated by a farsightedness
Oh you're thinking two quarters ahead now?
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> While America is appearing to be the abject fool here
I would just leave it at that.
Why is this flagged?
"we're gonna beat China by investing nothing"
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Having a president who lacks object permanence makes long-term planning difficult.
I'm tired of all the breathless handwringing. I'm sure that science in the US will be just fine without all the extravagant waste.
Like these? https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/11/over-74000-people-wer...
I'm OOTL, but there _is_ a ton of waste when it comes to money we give out.
The article itself even says here:
> [...] the US government has cut scientific grants to academics working on diversity-related topics, halted biomedical grants to international partners, and demanded universities shut down academic units that “belittle” conservative ideas [...]
I'd say it's fair to question if taxpayers should be paying for "diversity related projects." The "belittle conservative ideas" thing is problematic, as that is totally subjective. However, I don't think anyone can say in good faith that most universities aren't incredibly bias. Having been in one circa 2020, it was not a welcoming place if you weren't firmly liberal/progressive. Of course I have to place my disclaimer that I'm not a fan of what Trump is doing, or the man himself for that matter.
New account because I’m a lazy lurker, but “diversity related” projects could be as simple as trying to balance the number of studies done primarily on white males vs other groups. Especially in biomedical research, the gender of the population studied has a profound effect on the relevancy of results.
By many measures, over 75% of studies have historically focused on white male populations, which for a variety of potential research/treatment areas, is important to control for.
https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+medical+studie...
Then it's subjective, what they define as a waste of money, this is par for the course when it comes to choosing what to fund.
You do not trust the current administration to be objective when it comes to cutting funding. I don't trust universities to be objective when it comes to funding.
I take any claims/studies from universities regarding gender/race with a huge grain of salt. There is too much room for bias and sensationalism. Not long ago there was a study claiming that white doctors were treating non-white babies with less care than white babies. However, the original authors made several mistakes and the study couldn't replicate.
Funnily enough, if you google percentage of medical studies that can't be replicated, you get 75% too :)
It wasn't very welcoming in the 90s either.
In the previous Trump term "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity."
Conservatives in the past have also tried to belittle research grants to justify eliminating them, such as "studying X about fruit flies." It might sound silly to a lay person but drosophila is an incredibly important model organism from which many discoveries have come.
The problem is a highly political, often careless or incompetent, and sometimes blatantly corrupt administration taking a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel to so-called "waste."
[1] https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2019...
> "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity."
Do you have a source for this? How can you prove it was simply because it was "diversity related" and not because it someone, somewhere determined the budget needed to be cut because the spending was wasteful?
As far as I can tell, the budget never passed, so we have no way to know one way or another the effects.
I have never seen a government entity claim that cutting their budget wouldn't be catastrophic.
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