Comment by socketcluster
2 days ago
I feel like there's no point to get a graphics card nowadays. Clearly, graphics cards are optimized for graphics; they just happened to be good for AI but based on the increased significance of AI, I'd be surprised if we don't get more specialized chips and specialized machines just for LLMs. One for LLMs, a different one for stable diffusion.
With graphics processing, you need a lot of bandwidth to get stuff in and out of the graphics card for rendering on a high-resolution screen, lots of pixels, lots of refreshes, lots of bandwidth... With LLMs, a relatively small amount of text goes in and a relatively small amount of text comes out over a reasonably long amount of time. The amount of internal processing is huge relative to the size of input and output. I think NVIDIA and a few other companies already started going down that route.
But probably graphics cards will still be useful for stable diffusion; especially AI-generated videos as the inputs and output bandwidth is much higher.
Nah, that's just plain wrong.
First, GPGPU is powerful and flexible. You can make an "AI-specific accelerator", but it wouldn't be much simpler or much more power-efficient - while being a lot less flexible. And since you need to run traditional graphics and AI workloads both in consumer hardware? It makes sense to run both on the same hardware.
And bandwidth? GPUs are notorious for not being bandwidth starved. 4K@60FPS seems like a lot of data to push in or out, but it's nothing compared to how fast modern PCIe 5.0 x16 goes. AI accelerators are more of the same.
GPUs might not be bandwidth starved most of the time, but they absolutely are when generating text from an llm. It’s the whole reason why low precision floating point numbers are being pushed by nvidia.
That's memory bandwidth, not I/O. Unless your LLM doesn't fit into VRAM.
LLMs are enormously bandwidth hungry. You have to shuffle your 800GB neural network in and out of memory for every token, which can take more time/energy than actually doing the matrix multiplies. GPUs are almost not high bandwidth enough.
But even so, for a single user, the output rate for a very fast LLM would be like 100 tokens per second. With graphics, we're talking like 2 million pixels, 60 times a second; 120 million pixels per second for a standard high res screen. Big difference between 100 tokens vs 120 million pixels.
24 bit pixels gives 16 million possible colors... For tokens, it's probably enough to represent every word of the entire vocabulary of every major national language on earth combined.
> You have to shuffle your 800GB neural network in and out of memory
Do you really though? That seems more like a constraint imposed by graphics cards. A specialized AI chip would just keep the weights and all parameters in memory/hardware right where they are and update them in-situ. It seems a lot more efficient.
I think that it's because graphics cards have such high bandwidth that people decided to use this approach but it seems suboptimal.
But if we want to be optimal; then ideally, only the inputs and outputs would need to move in and out of the chip. This shuffling should be seen as an inefficiency; a tradeoff to get a certain kind of flexibility in the software stack... But you waste a huge amount of CPU cycles moving data between RAM, CPU cache and Graphics card memory.
> Do you really though?
Yes.
It stays in on the hbm but it need to get shuffled to the place where it can actually do the computation. It’s a lot like a normal cpu. The cpu can’t do anything with data in the system memory, it has to be loaded into a cpu register. For every token that is generated, a dense llm has to read every parameter in the model.
If we did that it would be much more expensive, keeping all weights in SRAM is done by Groq for example.
This doesn't seem right. Where is it shuffling to and from? My drives aren't fast enough to load the model every token that fast, and I don't have enough system memory to unload models to.
From VRAM to the tensor cores and back. On a modern GPU you can have 1-2tb moving around inside the GPU every second.
This is why they use high bandwidth memory for VRAM.
1 reply →
If you're using a MoE model like DeepSeek V3 the full model is 671 GB but only 37 GB are active per token, so it's more like running a 37 GB model from the memory bandwidth perspective. If you do a quant of that it could e.g. be more like 18 GB.
You're probably not using an 800GB model.
It is right. The shuffling is from CPU memory to GPU memory, and from GPU memory to GPU. If you don’t have enough memory you can’t run the model.
5 replies →
> Clearly, graphics cards are optimized for graphics; they just happened to be good for AI
I feel like the reverse has been true since after the Pascal era.
I don't doubt that there will be specialized chips that make AI easier, but they'll be more expensive than the graphics cards sold to consumers which means that a lot of companies will just go with graphics cards, either because the extra speed of specialized chips won't be worth the cost, or will they'll be flat out too expensive and priced for the small number of massive spenders who'll shell out insane amounts of money for any/every advantage (whatever they think that means) they can get over everyone else.