Comment by gtirloni
1 day ago
I see electric/hybrid BYD cars more and more every day. Meanwhile, US/EU automakers are still struggling to offer anything barely competitive.
1 day ago
I see electric/hybrid BYD cars more and more every day. Meanwhile, US/EU automakers are still struggling to offer anything barely competitive.
US dealers and manufacturers have no financial incentive in promoting and selling EVs. They can’t survive on fixing window chips, rotating tires and occasional bodywork alone. It’s a huge industry with long tentacles.
And when they do or did have incentives, they were not passed on to the consumers. My 2025 Hyundai Ioniq 5 had a $57K sticker. That’s not what I paid for it and cheapish leases are aplenty- but - when the federal $7500 credit expired, they simply dropped the MSRP by that much if not more. BMW and others are pursuing the same strategy in the states. The car was never worth near that much to begin with. They were and are jacking up prices and pocketing the change.
BYD is dumping.
Legacy automakers EVs are just ICE cars with the engine swapped out. Whereas BYDs, teslas etc are a ground up rethink, vertically integrated with battery manufacturing and software.
Classic innovators dilemma - it seems to be almost impossible to align incentives inside legacy auto to do the necessary revolutionary change. Every individual and sub group are internally invested and short term focused on their legacy frames, drivetrains, layouts, electronics, software and supply chains. That’s why you keep getting offered the same car, but now as a sub par EV. So they will lose, because they can’t adapt.
They are getting a lot better in the drivetrain at least, watching videos of teardowns (like Munroe Live) - a couple of years ago a lot of the legacy car brands were using OEM motors and inverters etc. from companies like Bosch, but the newer models are getting a lot more advanced. Probably Lucid had the nicest motor and electronics package and everyone seems to have converged on motor windings a lot like theirs (including Tesla and the legacy brands).
But there is still a lot to be desired in legacy EVs, but generally at least some of the brands are slowly moving in the right direction.
point taken on the motors. But perhaps drivetrain was the wrong word for what i was trying to focus on - perhaps "platform" is closer? As an elaboration - the legacies are still proudly talking up their upcoming "unified platforms", that allow them to build models in a single factory and interchange ICE and EV powertrains in the same model based on demand. Same cars in everything but drivetrain.
That's the sort of thing that sounds great to a legacy incumbent (yay think of the reuse!), but inevitably leads to building bad EVs compared to the new companies who are building reimagined EV-only platforms from the ground up. Handling, suspension, range, battery integration, software are always going to be better in an EV-first design. The incumbents are trying to have their cake and eat it too - building EVs, but not cannibalizing their main ICE profits.
So, they will lose. Its their kodak moment.
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BYD at least also started as ICE car makers from acquiring some bankrupt state owned car makers.
Only from 2019 or 2020 I believe they stopped making ICE.
well they were a battery company first. I cant know for sure but i presume they bought the ice car manufacturing lines always with the intention of going fully electric over time.
I know that "laziness" is kind of a generic/useless criticism to throw at a company or sector, but there really is that vibe for EVs in the West.
Not angering the oligarchs who profit from oil appears to be the root cause.
This then flows downstream to inconsistent and patchwork government support for the transition to EVs.
The short term incentives aren't all properly aligned for car makers to fully commit to build EVs and support the supply chain to do that.
Decades from now we're going to look at the oil patch lobbyists as the villains that killed countless jobs in NA and enabled China to take over whole industries.
You had some politicians like Justin Trudeau that tried to create a frame work that would guide and advantage capital toward investing in innovative green technology and future jobs, but then politicians saw the advantage in politicizing and opposing everything and they tore this all down.
Now China has continued to move ahead meanwhile NA remains at square one with increasingly backward technology, with no incentive to change.
It's going to get really bad!
Triffin Dilemma, not laziness. This is a macroeconomic problem.
That's only for the US, not the West writ large.
I really wonder what are the parts where BYD gets its competitiveness from vs where it might be behind
Software explains a lot, dumping explains some of it but it might not be all of it
Isn't China at the forefront of battery technology (and BYD was initially a battery company).
Japanese engineers disassembled a BYD vehicle said BYD's E-Axle drive system was so advanced it would take them 10 years to replicate it. BYD's blade batteries are also a major competitive advantage.
The problem is that few people in "the west" wants EVs.
It's basic supply and demand - the sales are tanking, and without subsidies nobody will buy them, and the car companies are realizing that.
A few models (Teslas, for example) do okay with the upper class, but the lower and middle class can't afford them, don't have anywhere to charge them, and have to drive too much to depend on them.
Even in a trendy, wealthy city like Boulder, CO which is all about saving the environment and going green there isn't nearly enough charging capacity for everybody to use EVs.
An EV is better than no car at all, but they're a downgrade from an ICE in most cases.
> A few models (Teslas, for example) do okay with the upper class, but the lower and middle class can't afford them
I bet the lower and middle class could afford a $10k BYD car though.
It depends where you live and your driving distances. The US is the worst case for EVs because of longer driving distances and cheaper gas. I plug mine in at my own home so I never have to stop to fill it up a tank which is really nice. A renter might struggle to find anywhere to charge though. ICE is horrible to drive in comparison. They are noisy and lack torque and lots of moving parts need maintenance.
For sparsely populated areas or city to city driving plug-in hybrids should bridge the gap and allow people do most driving on electric and get the benefits of EV performance.
The "west" doesn't want expensive EVs. The most popular (or the second most popular) EV in China now costs $5000 for the base model. And for $15k you can get a very reasonable car.
Beefing it up to the US/EU safety standards and even accounting for higher labor cost, it would be around $20k. I'm pretty sure consumers would be quite interested in something like this.
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Consumers in the US haven't actually been given a chance to show what they "want". The cheap EVs have been kept out, of course the $100k ones arent selling that well. Remove the tariffs and import restrictions, and then people will show you what they actually want!
> An EV is better than no car at all, but they're a downgrade from an ICE in most cases.
Totally disagree. ~70% of americans live in single family homes. If you can charge at home which they can, and you dont have some edge case super distance driving needs, EV is better in every way.
EVs are a superior car if you have a private garage and rarely take long trips or have multiple cars so you don’t need the EV for trips. Great for suburban living, which is where most Americans live. Never having to go to the gas station is legitimately a game changer and it’s worth swapping to EVs for that alone given you check the 2 boxes. Then you consider the better torque and lower noise and easier maintenance and it’s a no brainer.
Boulder is not a great EV town because everyone road trips all the time. 70% of Americans live east of the Mississippi where road trips are less common.
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> US/EU automakers are still struggling to offer anything barely competitive.
Imagine yourself being one of the top management guys in one of those legacy car makers, you've spent your entire life building what you "earned" in that company...Suddenly the company tells you that you will be sidelined so more resources that once thought to be under your control can be allocated to an EV project so you can be further marginalize in the near future. what will be your reactions? You offer to help in the project (by building junks with your legacy understanding on cars) or you do anything possible to sink that project.
The result is the same - your legacy carmaker company is fxxked.
It is not like just US/EU legacy automakers struggling to offer anything competitive - Chinese legacy automakers that have been in the exact same market for decades with direct access to the exact same supply chain and government subsidies are suffering from the exact same problem. It is not about regulations, market access or subsidies. It is just human nature.
I don't believe the West can sustain its lead. The US became rich by being the worlds manufacturing powerhouse in 1900. Over time, they grew comfortable, developed a massive upper class, and pivoted toward service and 'knowledge' jobs. They outsourced production to China or simply allowed China to take it over.
Germany and the EU followed a similar path. We know how to build machines and industrial products; precision and detail are our stereotypes and trademark. However, we also grew comfortable, focusing on services and high-level strategy while we did not invest to fix energy prices, raw resource dependencies and labor/automatisation.
How long is China looking fo resources in Afrika? Despite China being huge and having plenty of?
China overtook Germany as the leader in industrial exports in 2018, and now in 2026, the gap is already to broad. China has mastered machine building, controls the entire supply chain, and possesses modern technology; all while maintaining lower labor costs and a massive workforce.
Even if the USA and Germany try to avoid Chinese products, the rest of the world will not. We are entering a new era: the mass production of affordable, precise machinery globally, powered by China. If regions like Africa buy their solar, wind, and batteries from China, their entire energy grid and the machines running on it will be Chinese. They will look to China, not the West.
For example, a German company making weaving machines recently noted their price must be €60k to stay profitable, while a Chinese machine of the same quality costs only €20k. Once technology reaches its peak, differentiation is no longer possible to justify higher prices. The car industry is next; cars are becoming a commodity with shrinking profit margins. This shift will make China incredibly wealthy over the next 20 years.
And it wasn't even out of the blue. The shit was written on the wall and despite that what happens? We in germany discuss bureaucracy, if we should change our energy grid, IF investments in cheaper energy is reasonable etc.
We can’t even build our own infrastructure anymore. Look at the SuedOstLink disaster: while China builds massive 'Super Grids' in record time, Germany has spent over a decade and billions of Euros just arguing about a single power cable. Because we are stuck in bureaucracy and 'Not In My Backyard' protests, our energy costs are skyrocketing, while China doesn't care but still beats us in renewables.
It’s the perfect example of a society that has become so comfortable it has forgotten how to actually build the physical foundations of its own wealth.
And adding on top of all of that: AI and Robotic progress is fast, so crazy fast than when its here, we might have solved the other issues i mentioned...
EU car makers need to confirm to insane EU laws regarding every little thing.
Every car maker selling cars in the EU needs to comply with EU laws.
That's why Europe is mercifully free of Cybertrucks: they can't legally operate on roads within the EU, because they don't meet the safety requirements (one of your "little things").
There are some cybertrucks in EU, registered using loopholes like T3b title meant for farming equipment, quads etc
Don't Chinese makers need to conform to the same EU laws when selling cars in the EU? That's how it works in the US.
They only had to comply with EU laws when they were already a big player in China. EU manufacturers need their new vehicles to be compliant on day one. That is, if they want to launch in the EU market first. Audi recently launched a China-only car (AUDI E5 Sportback).
Exactly the same rules for BYD, Tesla etc (maybe with the exception of second hand private import)
BYD selling to Europe would also need to conform to these
> every little thing
ie, killing people and polluting the planet, mostly.
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