Comment by jmward01
4 days ago
This is illegal, immoral, unsupported by the vast majority of the US population and requiring immediate action by every US citizen and elected official.
4 days ago
This is illegal, immoral, unsupported by the vast majority of the US population and requiring immediate action by every US citizen and elected official.
> the vast majority of the US population
Well, it's hard to know whether it's true
It’s actually not. 60% opposed,+20% not sure is 80% of the population would count as a “vast majority”
https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/53787-scant-ameri...
Are these polls as good as the election pools? dubious at best.
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Unlike popular opinion before other US actions like this, opinion polls show any military action in Venezuela as being very unpopular, like half the popularity of Trump, 20% popular.
That can change after the action, especially depending on how the media covers it, so we will see. The past few years have greatly lessened my faith in the inherent goodness of Americans, and I believe that we have let ourselves abandon our traditional ideals.
Well, at least for now Epstein is off the front pages so mission accomplished I guess?
> This is ... unsupported by the vast majority of the US population
The people that voted for the current president tend to support whatever he tells them to support, so I don't think that's true.
Trump got 77 million votes in 2024, which is 44% of the eligible voting population and a mere 32% of the US adult population. Trump's current approval rating is 39%. Even among those who support Trump overall, presumably a non-trivial portion don't support this particular action.
I am ashamed being part of HN where a lot of people here supporting this terrorism.
No matter how fucked up any country can be, US president has no right to bomb or terrorize other countries.
HN seems to mostly lean right...maybe not most users, but certainly the mods. It's not really surprising since it's a VC backed forum and concern for maximizing profit dwarfs everything else, even/especially moral issues.
Just look at how often relevant stories get suppressed.
Risking being downvoted to oblivion but as a South American this is a way more complex situation morally speaking.
Law-wise I agree and it has set an awful precedent.
But in the other hand Venezuelans all over the world (certainly the Venezuelans here that I know) are celebrating. I myself am in some way relieved. This is a dictator that did unspeakable things to their own population, set proxy criminal organizations, sent hitmen to kill dissidents in my country, highly decreasing our perceived safety.
So one part of my heart is glad. Plenty of Venezuelans are. I just hope they are quick to either put Corina Machado in charge or call for elections and at last bring true freedom to that country.
"I just hope they are quick to either put Corina Machado in charge or call for elections and at last bring true freedom to that country."
Yeah, what happens next is kind of the sticky part. That and "unintended consequences".
The Shah and the current state of Iran comes to mind.
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Willing to completely give up domestic control of your energy sector in exchange for this regime change?
Because that's what has actually happened here.
It's not like there will be peaceful and organized elections now. The template from US actions in Latin America in the past is: A puppet regime will be installed and it will be involved in heavy domestic oppression of its own.
> Willing to completely give up domestic control of your energy sector in exchange for this regime change?
You're saying this as if they (the people) had any control before.
A military intervention should always be the last resort. Two examples of military intervention / occupation working out in the long run are Germany and Japan in WW2. Maybe even South Korea (stabilization of a dictatorship and economic development lead to a democratic revolution later). One can be hopeful that this starts a better chapter for the Venezuelians as well.
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I'm in LA.
The Persian expats here want us to Bomb Iran. The Vietnam expats want us to go back Into Vietnam. The Cubans want us to go take over Cuba again.
People who flee country X to the global hegemon seem to be in support of invading country X.
It's a selection bias. Kinda like saying everyone who walked out on their job at company X doesn't think much of company X.
I mean heck, you can probably find Canadians who fled for one reason or another and want America to invade Canada.
I really don't put any credence into that perspective and have been trying to explain this to my Venezuelan friends that this is simply an oil grab.
They don't get it.
The Venezuelan diaspora is of approximately 8 million people. The current Venezuelan population is around 28 million. That’s a huge percentage of the population you a disregarding. And note that most still have relatives in their country of origin and they are also supportive of US intervention. At the end the oil is the least of their concerns. It’s easy to disregard them from a moral and legal point of view, but the suffering of this whole continent because of that dictator is very real.
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> The Persian expats here want us to Bomb Iran. The Vietnam expats want us to go back Into Vietnam. The Cubans want us to go take over Cuba again.
Because the world sees your government as a bully.
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<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20473862>
Got it. Forgot that rule.
Exactly this, as a Colombian with many friends who fled Venezuela, the consensus is that the means aren't good but it's looking like a great outcome for democracy (might be too early to tell)
As an American, I’m outraged at this blatant disregard for international norms.
As a person living in the Americas… I’m surprised at how good this outcome is? Did we just remove a terrible regime in a comparably bloodless way?
This appears to be a prisoner’s dilemma. What just happened is probably a utilitarian win. But the president it sets could enable horrible abuses in the future.
> As a person living in the Americas… I’m surprised at how good this outcome is? Did we just remove a terrible regime in a comparably bloodless way?
It's way too early to tell this. I mean, hopefully yes, but it's way, way too early to tell.
That's also how it seemed after the Iraq invasion and the removal of Saddam Hussein. “Once we get rid of the bad guy at the top, everything in Iraq will get better.”
It didn't turn out well. I hope this one turns out better.
> Did we just remove a terrible regime in a comparably bloodless way?
You captured Maduro in an blatantly illegal act of war and until now the Regime is still there.
I hope for the people in Venezuela that this will end without a bloodshed. AFAIK Maduro has still support, especially in the poorer part of the population.
As an American I would hope you know how to properly use the words prisoners dilemma and president
Same as you. This piece of shit needed to be gone. I've seen Venezuelans begging for food, money and shelter in geographic areas where you wouldn't even imagine due the exodus. I've seen South American communities orbiting xenophobia on Venezuelans because the lack of opportunities of immigrants where almost impossible in countries where there weren't any for many of the current residents.
>So one part of my heart is glad. Plenty of Venezuelans are. I just hope they are quick to either put Corina Machado in charge or call for elections and at last bring true freedom to that country.
Putting her in charge just means that the country will get looted by the Western Parasite Capitalist class instead of the South American Socialist Mobster class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMt1TDA848M
Let's say best case scenario, zero innocent casualties and a democratic government takes over and Venezuela prospers - would you still consider it immoral?
That isn’t how morality works. It’s expressly the opposite, a restating of “end justifies the means”. It’s a defensible position to hold, but not a moral one.
Plenty of moral frameworks (there are more than one!) would hold that view. You don’t have a monopoly on the word “moral.”
Consider this, from an FAQ on consequentialism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism):
> The end does justify the means. This is obvious with even a few seconds' thought, and the fact that the phrase has become a byword for evil is a historical oddity rather than a philosophical truth.
> Hollywood has decided that this should be the phrase Persian-cat-stroking villains announce just before they activate their superlaser or something. But the means that these villains usually employ is killing millions of people, and the end is subjugating Earth beneath an iron-fisted dictatorship. Those are terrible means to a terrible end, so of course it doesn't end up justified.
> Next time you hear that phrase, instead of thinking of a villain activating a superlaser, think of a doctor giving a vaccination to a baby. Yes, you're causing pain to a baby and making her cry, which is kinda sad. But you're also preventing that baby from one day getting a terrible disease, so the end justifies the means. If it didn't, you could never give any vaccinations.
> If you have a really important end and only mildly unpleasant means, then the end justifies the means. If you have horrible means that don't even lead to any sort of good end but just make some Bond villain supreme dictator of Earth, then you're in trouble - but that's hardly the fault of the end never justifying the means.
(Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20140220063523/https://www.raiko...)
Note that it's not clear whether the end does justify the means in this specific case, and likely won't be for some time, if ever.
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It's a philosophical question, I don't think there's a single objective truth.
Regardless I'm curious as to what is inherently immoral in arresting a dictator?
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Just like Iraq. Remember?
Videos from the event already show that civilians were targeted during the attack.
We are well past the point that “videos from the attack” can be trusted, no matter which argument they support. It’s a terrifying state of affairs.
Source?
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Why stop there? The best case scenario would include prosecution of Trump and his administration.