Does fact that Congress, not the President, has the power to "To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water" matter? Or is the constitution not what you voted for?
You are correct, but also it doesn't matter because the US has flaunted the constitution in precisely this way for every single war America has been in since WW2. Wars without congressional declaration are de facto legal and have been for as long as you and I have been alive.
This, of course, is one of the reasons why people's opinion of the USA has been steadily dropping.
They don't play by the rules that they themselves created. They are not a trustworthy partner.
Any country that can ought to be removing any and all dependencies on the USA as a matter of priority - as Europe is doing for military matters. It's actually pretty easy, you just schmooze the orange fuckwit and tell him everything's ok, and then you do what you want, incrementally so you can boil that frog.
Look I agree this whole thing is wrong, but to say this instance of regime change, unprovoked attack, war, whatever you call it is UNIQUELY unconstitutional is obviously wrong.
Every US President since the end of WW2 has waged war without a formal declaration of war from Congress. And presidents from both parties will continue to do so.
This is not to say it's right or good. But there is surely widespread agreement that it is constitutional to do things like this, and there has been for nearly a century.
A regime is not a single person, e.g. Mr Maduro largely continued from Mr Chavez.
If it is true that Mr Maduro has been abducted, there will surely be changes to the regime in Venezuela. A complete change of regime, however, is not guaranteed. And trying to do it might require more application of forcer, with all the attendant risks of that.
Any nuclear-empowered nation is obviously off limits, but any nation without nuclear and with active hostilities towards the US is certainly thinking twice.
Trump has spent the last year (decade actually) doing a disgraceful show of pleasing a dictator who invaded his neighbour. To say nothing of his own authoritarian projects at home. And let's not even get started about Netanyahu.
How can you talk about this as if it was a crusade for justice against dictators? Some people are just terminally gullible.
> Dictators will go to sleep just slightly more terrified tomorrow night.
The irony of someone who (presumably, from statements) voted for Trump saying this while their own country tortures, disappears and in some cases murders thousands, plus potentially rigged elections...
I don't see any case of US citizens being tortured, murdered, and disappeared at scale. Source please?
Source on rigged elections? I didn't believe it when Trump cried wolf and I don't believe it when people think 2024 was rigged.
Edit: "But ICE!" - ICE is deporting (not torturing or murdering thousands of) non-citizens. They are doing a fantastic job (low false positive rate, maybe 10/300,000 with 0 permanent citizen deportations.) I am asking specifically about citizens.
as usual with Trump supporters: trying to make both sides seem "equal" on election rigging, when one side (in 2020) caused Jan 6 to happen and still won't accept the election results from 2020, whereas a few fringe people (I guess) had some problems with 2024.
You voted for brown people on flimsy boats to be blown up in extrajudicial killings and for regime change? I thought MAGAs were all about love and peace unlike the war monger, Barrack Obama.
Out of all the many years of fighting a war on drugs, what difference is this going to make? Some lackeys (forced potentially) get blown up, the barons find some more, or use different methods, and 40 years later we're still fighting the war on drugs.
People love drugs. They really want to get hold of them. Someone is going to keep supplying drugs, no matter how many lackeys you blow up.
It’s ~1,000 miles from the US to Venezuela. Have you ever been on a fishing boat? Especially an “overpowered” one? Guess how much fuel they burn? It’s very unlikely a boat has enough fuel to make it to the US, and if it did it would need fuel to get back. Where are they getting the fuel for these drug runs?
5000 years of civilisation and a sizeable chunk of the population of first-world countries still doesn't understand why law and courts are better than "just kill people who are le bad".
Let's not even talk about the killing of shipwrecked people who are hors de combat according to the Geneva Convention. Even the Nazis during unrestricted submarine warfare had the decency of not murdering shipwrecked crews and passengers. We are truly in a wretched time when nothing matters anymore.
I only did because that's the phrasing everyone uses for describing our operations in the middle east. Those are bad, but doing the same in South America is good because evil drug traffickers?
Why do your interests dictate who should or shouldn't get ousted? Will the new dictator work in the interests of other powers? If they are unfriendly to Chinese interest will it be fair game for China to launch an invasion?
So why bother with the earlier hypocritical pretence bringing up torture and murder? Just straight up say you approve of the move because a new U.S. stooge in Venezuela would be better for US geopolitical interests.
So “torture”, "disappeareance", “murder of thousands”, and “rigging elections” are fine if it's in US interests now? Then why use them as argument in the first place.
better for whom? It's, at best, a lateral move for Venezuelans (you know, the people who's country we just bombed) and it's very unlikely that the average American will benefit from a fascist junta in South America.
Does fact that Congress, not the President, has the power to "To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water" matter? Or is the constitution not what you voted for?
You are correct, but also it doesn't matter because the US has flaunted the constitution in precisely this way for every single war America has been in since WW2. Wars without congressional declaration are de facto legal and have been for as long as you and I have been alive.
This, of course, is one of the reasons why people's opinion of the USA has been steadily dropping.
They don't play by the rules that they themselves created. They are not a trustworthy partner.
Any country that can ought to be removing any and all dependencies on the USA as a matter of priority - as Europe is doing for military matters. It's actually pretty easy, you just schmooze the orange fuckwit and tell him everything's ok, and then you do what you want, incrementally so you can boil that frog.
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This is factually incorrect.
The Gulf of Tonkin resolution authorized war in Vietnam. A Joint resolution authorized the Gulf War. Two of many counter examples.
Look I agree this whole thing is wrong, but to say this instance of regime change, unprovoked attack, war, whatever you call it is UNIQUELY unconstitutional is obviously wrong.
Every US President since the end of WW2 has waged war without a formal declaration of war from Congress. And presidents from both parties will continue to do so.
This is not to say it's right or good. But there is surely widespread agreement that it is constitutional to do things like this, and there has been for nearly a century.
> but to say this instance of regime change,
A regime is not a single person, e.g. Mr Maduro largely continued from Mr Chavez.
If it is true that Mr Maduro has been abducted, there will surely be changes to the regime in Venezuela. A complete change of regime, however, is not guaranteed. And trying to do it might require more application of forcer, with all the attendant risks of that.
I’m pretty sure he didn’t vote for the constitution.
> "Sovereign head of state" tortured, "disappeared", and murdered thousands, and rigged elections.
can't wait for someone to kidnap trump as well
Is what you describe Maduro specific? Or specific to the ruling party of Venezuela?
It’s not like the ruling party gives up power and dissolves in this situation. That level of regime change requires an invasion or coup.
> This is what I voted for. I am so fucking happy.
This isn't over. There are so many ways how this can backfire. E.g. how long until a bunch of random Americans are kidnapped as a way to get him back?
Sure, that could happen if anyone actually liked Maduro. What we are seeing instead is widespread celebration.
> Dictators will go to sleep just slightly more terrified tomorrow night.
And Putin?
Mark another instance of ignoring the US Constitution down. Sounds a bit like America has their very own dictator.
Any nuclear-empowered nation is obviously off limits, but any nation without nuclear and with active hostilities towards the US is certainly thinking twice.
> This is what I voted for. I am so fucking happy.
Did you vote to pardon drug bosses too?
> Dictators will go to sleep just slightly more terrified tomorrow night.
Not at all. They will simply route a bit more money into Trump's pockets and celebrate their newfound ally.
Trump has spent the last year (decade actually) doing a disgraceful show of pleasing a dictator who invaded his neighbour. To say nothing of his own authoritarian projects at home. And let's not even get started about Netanyahu.
How can you talk about this as if it was a crusade for justice against dictators? Some people are just terminally gullible.
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> Dictators will go to sleep just slightly more terrified tomorrow night.
The irony of someone who (presumably, from statements) voted for Trump saying this while their own country tortures, disappears and in some cases murders thousands, plus potentially rigged elections...
I don't see any case of US citizens being tortured, murdered, and disappeared at scale. Source please?
Source on rigged elections? I didn't believe it when Trump cried wolf and I don't believe it when people think 2024 was rigged.
Edit: "But ICE!" - ICE is deporting (not torturing or murdering thousands of) non-citizens. They are doing a fantastic job (low false positive rate, maybe 10/300,000 with 0 permanent citizen deportations.) I am asking specifically about citizens.
We have masked men grabbing people off the streets with no accountability. Perhaps you should be asking for evidence of lack of human rights abuse.
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> I don't see any case of US citizens being tortured, murdered, and disappeared at scale. Source please?
ICE exists, and does all of those.
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They didn't use the word "citizens"
You deflected criticism earlier by describing yourself “brown”. Surely you know the US is leading the scoreboard in their murder.
And nobody said citizen. Your posts reek of trolling.
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as usual with Trump supporters: trying to make both sides seem "equal" on election rigging, when one side (in 2020) caused Jan 6 to happen and still won't accept the election results from 2020, whereas a few fringe people (I guess) had some problems with 2024.
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> This is what I voted for
You voted for brown people on flimsy boats to be blown up in extrajudicial killings and for regime change? I thought MAGAs were all about love and peace unlike the war monger, Barrack Obama.
> Brown people
hold up, I'm a "brown person."
Those people were trafficking drugs (as evidenced by the pallets of cocaine that fell out of their absurdly overpowered "fishing boat.")
I don't really care about extrajudicial killings of drug traffickers, as someone that has been impacted by them.
Out of all the many years of fighting a war on drugs, what difference is this going to make? Some lackeys (forced potentially) get blown up, the barons find some more, or use different methods, and 40 years later we're still fighting the war on drugs.
People love drugs. They really want to get hold of them. Someone is going to keep supplying drugs, no matter how many lackeys you blow up.
It’s ~1,000 miles from the US to Venezuela. Have you ever been on a fishing boat? Especially an “overpowered” one? Guess how much fuel they burn? It’s very unlikely a boat has enough fuel to make it to the US, and if it did it would need fuel to get back. Where are they getting the fuel for these drug runs?
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5000 years of civilisation and a sizeable chunk of the population of first-world countries still doesn't understand why law and courts are better than "just kill people who are le bad".
Let's not even talk about the killing of shipwrecked people who are hors de combat according to the Geneva Convention. Even the Nazis during unrestricted submarine warfare had the decency of not murdering shipwrecked crews and passengers. We are truly in a wretched time when nothing matters anymore.
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Ah yes, inexplicably alluding to race makes every argument stronger. May as well throw in some inaninity about climate change while you're at it.
I only did because that's the phrasing everyone uses for describing our operations in the middle east. Those are bad, but doing the same in South America is good because evil drug traffickers?
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I bet you they hand it over to the legally elected government. But look forward to a new friendship American military base coming soon to Venezuela.
They have probably already been working on this in the lead up to their forceful engagement. It is a pretty standard state department et. all tactic
> They're going to put in another dictator, except this one will be friendly to US interests
I don't believe you have any evidence that this is the plan - what if democratic elections are held again?
In any case, even if it does happen: Far better than a dictator unfriendly to our interests.
Why do your interests dictate who should or shouldn't get ousted? Will the new dictator work in the interests of other powers? If they are unfriendly to Chinese interest will it be fair game for China to launch an invasion?
So why bother with the earlier hypocritical pretence bringing up torture and murder? Just straight up say you approve of the move because a new U.S. stooge in Venezuela would be better for US geopolitical interests.
So “torture”, "disappeareance", “murder of thousands”, and “rigging elections” are fine if it's in US interests now? Then why use them as argument in the first place.
> Far better than a dictator unfriendly to our interests.
You’re contradicting yourself.
better for whom? It's, at best, a lateral move for Venezuelans (you know, the people who's country we just bombed) and it's very unlikely that the average American will benefit from a fascist junta in South America.
Can we please report vapid personal attacks like this comment? This is a reddit-esque answer.
You're right, I'm very frustrated with my government right now and I was a jerk to the guy. I'm an adult and I should behave like one.
Thanks for calling out my bullshit, sincerely.
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