Comment by vmg12
3 days ago
I think people are overindexed on the US's failures to turn Islamic theocracies into democracies. The people in Venezuela want democracy. It's a fundamentally different situation.
3 days ago
I think people are overindexed on the US's failures to turn Islamic theocracies into democracies. The people in Venezuela want democracy. It's a fundamentally different situation.
> The people in Venezuela want democracy.
Venezuela had a democracy for decades. It's the US that has been trying to destroy it for decades because the venezuelans voted for the wrong guy. It's funny how we forgot that the US also tried to remove the previous elected leader of venezuela.
Last year the people decided to vote for an alternative and the dictator decided to stay in power.
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Given the US position in favor of Bolsanaro against Lula indicates that Trump is not interested in Democracy if it produces the wrong result. If Venezuelans elect a Socialist, they will immediately be out of our good graces.
> The people in Venezuela want democracy. It's a fundamentally different situation.
"We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators" - Dick Cheney (but I'm sure it'll work out this time)
There is a whole lot of directions this can go after we arrest the dictator, but a liberal democracy magically immediately popping isn't on my list. There might be one in the future but there will be a lot of chaos and violence between now and then.
What happened in Europe after WW2? Dick Cheney didn't invent the idea of America liberating a country and being greeted as liberators, it had happened before, specifically in countries that had a history of liberal democracy.
For some reason he thought it would apply to Islamic theocracies and it clearly didn't. Pattern matching Venezuela against Iraq or Afghanistan is an obvious mistake.
We aren't occupying Venezuela and rooting out everyone in the current regime and putting them on trial. We just arrested a handful of people leaving the rest of the government intact. It playing out like WW2 doesn't make sense
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> What happened in Europe after WW2? Dick Cheney didn't invent the idea of America liberating a country and being greeted as liberators, it had happened before, specifically in countries that had a history of liberal democracy.
Those countries were actually being liberated from a foreign power that had invaded them just a few years prior.
There are very few examples where a foreign nation overthrowing the indigenous government (no matter how despised that government may be) are greeted as liberators, and in those select few instances the sentiment is almost universally short lived.
> The people in Venezuela want democracy.
Let’s assume for a second this is true, and the US is genuinely helping by removing a dictator.
Why Venezuela? Why not one of the other dozens of countries in the world this is the case?
Hint: oil.
I don't know if you remember that Hugo Chavez was voted into power, had a legitimate mandate to dismantle the democracy that elevated him, and then his voters defended him against a violent coup to restore that democracy.
"had a legitimate mandate to dismantle the democracy"... citation needed.
I wonder if you would defend Trump for the same actions, and also don’t forget ‘dismantling free press’ in Hugo’s list of accomplishments.
I don't support Trump, but I would not support a foreign power unilaterally abducting him.
The funny part of that narrative is the US government currently being led by people who have been trying to tear down the concept of democracy in the US. Maybe once Venezuela has their democracy back, they can help out the people in the US?
What’s even funnier is that, in some kind of trial, Maduro should enjoy Presidential Immunity.
And the US want oil and other resources.
So Venezuela has to vote correctly otherwise it will get "freed" again
Going by what recently happened in Honduras, they won't even need to vote. The US will just choose for them!
How convenient.
Why would Washington try to get oil from Venezuela when its domestic oil industry produces all the oil the US needs (and if production were to decrease, the US economy could easily make up the shortfall by buying oil from Canada)?
It's not about needing the oil to use, it's about profit for American oil companies. Resource extraction from foreign countries at gunpoint is a major basis of the US economy.
US has a long history of overthrowing both democracies and dictators to allow their companies to extract resources lining the pockets of already rich industrialists.
The US intentionally uses only a fraction of its oil reserves so it can control the price, and will still have plenty when others run out.
Check out the capacity of the Alaska pipeline, and how much goes down it each day. Literally the least possible to keep it well maintained.
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Domestic crude oil is mostly not compatible with US refineries, so it mostly gets exported. The US imports heavy crude, like that produced by Venezuela, for our domestic use.
Why would you buy oil from Canada when you can take oil from Venezuela?
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To hinder China, so sell it themselves, to prevent competition
Don’t forget I mentioned other resources too. Venezuela has more than oil.
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Determining the goodness of a blatantly illegal action by its ultimate success is a very Machiavellian view. Why have laws if all that matters is the final result?
What kind of democracy do Venezuelans want and will it be the same kind of democracy Trump wants to install? What if they want a democracy that continues to be friendly towards Cuba and wary of the US? Will Trump accept that?
If your hypothetical plays out I'll say you were right.
The problem US has always had with Latin America is that it's population likes a Socialist flavour of Democracy.
That doesn't rub well to the ruthless capitalist ideals of America. That's the reason why the US has destabilized the region again and again.
Boy I wish I was still this naive
"the common people sew dragon banners and pray for your return"
I can talk to Venezuelans and see videos of them celebrating in the streets.
For your own sake I hope you realize you are being shown those videos specifically to manipulate your opinion on this.
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I don't think the US has any interest in a democratic and stable middle east.
It's much easier and cheaper to extract resources from a balkanized region.