Comment by stickfigure
4 days ago
Venezuela was a functioning democracy until a short number of years ago, when Maduro stole the election through clear and blatant fraud.
Not every country is Iraq or Afghanistan. At least here it's fairly clear that removing Maduro reflects the popular will of Venezuelans.
One could easily ask the same question about the US. With congress having abdicated it raises the legitimate question of exactly what the US is now.
Among my European friends, no one considers the USA to be a legitimate democracy any more. The USA has for us devolved into a bandit state.
They should study political philosophy a bit more so they don’t say foolish things.
America is very clearly a legitimate democracy, even if who was voted in office and the actions of that democratically elected government don’t align with your expectations or world view.
I didn’t vote for the guy. But I did vote. And as a poll worker I can tell you first hand that we ran a free and fair election as we have for any year I can think of. Legitimate Democracy. Period.
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I certainly see the vitriol against the US on r/europe which seems like it has more news about the United States than Europe.
Can’t help but think it’s orchestrated by Russian bots.
You do realize the current government won the elections and the president won the popular vote right
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Maybe the president of the USA can do something about the president of the USA being authoritarian
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Hi, here in America we also know this is true. :) Just riding it out til the regime of crazy falls over. When it happens, there will be much rejoicing.
That's the story many Europeans are hearing from their hand rectangles.
> Among my European friends, no one considers the USA to be a legitimate democracy
Sure is a bold statement considering Spain was a dictatorship as recently as 1975.
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Same friends who believe there is genocide in Gaza?
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> With congress having abdicated
Historically in the American Republic, this has been true more often than not. There's a reason something taking "an act of Congress" is not a new expression for difficulty.
"Act of Congress" has always implied "something that is hard", but it has also implied "something that is fairly definitive". Today, congress can be largely ignored by the executive and congress seems to support it vocally. Is this also something that has been true more often than not in the American Republic?
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There are degrees. I don’t think congress has been this weak before in our lifetime. And most people seeming not to care scares me.
I have been looking at productivity numbers for congress over the past decades. And I don’t get why people aren’t furious over the current congress not doing their job.
That is rubbish. I loathe Trump more than most, but there's no serious claim that he wasn't freely elected in 2024. There appears to be a lot of buyer's remorse and we'll see what happens in the mid terms. But (sadly) Americans asked for this and they got it.
I would not say that we asked for it.
The opposition refused to address internal issues with the incumbent until they were painfully evident, then switched in a much weaker candidate in the final months who had never won a primary.
Had a stronger candidate been offered from the beginning, Trump well could have lost.
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> That is rubbish. I loathe Trump more than most, but there's no serious claim that he wasn't freely elected in 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_efforts_to_di...
In a way, America didn’t ask for what it got. America voted for a guy who claimed to have never heard of Project 2025. It got Project 2025.
Also, Trump ran on a populist message. Yet if you look at what he has done materially since he got into office, it seems his true allegiance is with the billionaire elite.
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History is filled with countries that wanted their leader gone, but rejected foreign influence.
I think most Venezuelans want freedom, prosperity, peace, and sovereignty.
I’m not sure in what order.
Time will tell if this move brought them any closer to those goals.
It's still military interference in a soverign nation to effect regime change.
Nevertheless, if you genuinely believe in the principles of democracy, this is a win.
It would have been better if Maduro had respected the choice of Venezuelan voters. But that didn't happen, so here we are.
I don’t really care to get involved of the affairs of foreign governments. This isn’t about “narcoterrorism” or democracy. You’re a fool if you think that.
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> Nevertheless, if you genuinely believe in the principles of democracy, this is a win.
That is at best premature. Maybe wait for the outcome?
Yes, foreign intervention worked wonderfully in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the world. We should also thank Russia for trying hard to extend its thriving democracy to Ukraine.
that's always the convenient excuse of the foreign attackers -- that they are "liberating the people"
we've seen this over and over again in foreign policy of large powerful countries
lets not pretend that this is about establishing democracy; it's about access to Venezuelan oil
it's the US showing it can do whatever it wants in its "backyard", just as it always has
No wonder Trump likes Putin
That just shows that popular will is not a justification for something. If the popular will was self destructive would a powerful entity be justified in giving them what they desire?
I agree. “Wisdom of the crowd” is the least useful aspect of democracy. “Broad support” and “bloodless regime change” are probably the most useful.
Eh, Saddam Hussein wasn't terribly popular. History is full of awful people being toppled and situations further degrading. Sometimes horrifically.
Iraq was never a democracy. It bounced from monarchy to military rule to one party rule to Hussein's personal dictatorship.
Venezuela had a... let's call it "respectable" democracy since the late 50s. Chavez did it no favors but it didn't completely collapse until Maduro.
If Venezuela recovers and improves, are you willing to fundamentally change your opinion about US interventions?
> If Venezuela recovers and improves, are you willing to fundamentally change your opinion about US interventions?
Uhh, no?
My opinion is that US interventions are incredibly risky. There have been numerous successes. There have also been numerous failures. Both have required immense resources and focus from us.
Some interventions are worth the risk, and others are not. I have not seen any compelling rationale for the risk-reward of this particular intervention, and have very low hopes for the follow through, which makes the risk-reward calculus even worse.
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> Iraq was never a democracy. It bounced from monarchy to military rule to one party rule to Hussein's personal dictatorship.
In reference to this, have you seen the footage of Saddam Hussein taking power? It’s chilling.
Ethics debates are not served by utilitarian arguments.
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Ah so US will allow Venezuela to profit from their own oil? This time surely
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The issue with regime change is whether there's enough political cohesion in a country's population after a despot / autocrat is removed.
"The opposition" is rarely a large and representative enough group to effect national power transition. (Btw, thanks for flagging that incorrectly as affect, Apple)
Especially in multi-ethnic states, most cohesive national identities are forged through extremely popular singular leaders.
Unfortunately, those are exactly the same leaders external regime-change initiators are wary of (too independent).
This year's winner of the nobel prize is highly organized and ran a parallel election campaign, which was obviously dismissed by the Maduro regime. There is a slim possibility of a peaceful transition given the democratic efforts underway in Venezuela for many years at this point.
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> Especially in multi-ethnic states, most cohesive national identities are forged through extremely popular singular leaders.
And before you know it you have a genocide on your hands.
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The popular will is the woman the majority voted for. Trump already said she will not be allowed to run the country, that the US will and that we will help them develop, read steal, their oil.
The majority voted for Edmundo González, and María Corina Machado has called for him to be recognized as the leader of the nation.
It's complicated because Maduro banned her from running in the last election (and still lost anyway). In a just world maybe she deserves the position. But if we want to restore democracy in Venezuela, González would be a natural place to start (along with new elections).
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For what it's worth he did stop the Taliban from raping the wives and daughters of the opium farmers. Obviously not for humanitarian reasons but I was rather fond of how he dealt with it even if for the wrong reasons.