Comment by simianparrot
3 days ago
Rules and laws only matter if you can enforce them.
The UN sits and is "deeply concerned" about terrible leaders and events all around the world all the time. Leaders of so many EU countries "condemn" people they disagree with. But they can't enforce anything, so it doesn't matter.
I prefer living in a world where a country I'm more aligned with than most can enforce their morality on the world _effectively_, like this. Not just empty words and platitudes and endless talking about "this is against international rule of law" -- none of that is real unless you _enforce_ it.
Venezuelans seem to be celebrating this. Maybe let them speak for themselves for once. And let's not forget, Maduro was indicted under Biden. This isn't a recent invention by the Trump administration.
Some Venezuelans are celebrating. Some Iraqis celebrated when Saddam’s statue fell. How they felt five years later is the more relevant data point.
“Let them speak for themselves” is doing a lot of work here. Which Venezuelans? The ones in Miami and Doral? The ones still in Caracas who’ll live with whatever comes next? The ones who’ll be caught in the crossfire if this destabilizes into civil war?
> I prefer living in a world where a country I’m more aligned with can enforce their morality on the world effectively.
So does everyone. The problem is that China and Russia feel the same way. Rules exist precisely because “let the powerful enforce their values” is a race to the bottom.
You’re comfortable with this because you trust the current enforcer. But frameworks outlast administrations. You’re not just endorsing this action, you’re endorsing the principle that whoever has the most power gets to decide. Hope you still like that principle when the power shifts.
Enforcement without wisdom is just violence with good PR.
You're not going to stop Russia with rules unless you enforce them. Look at Ukraine. Same with China. They're not going to leave Taiwan in peace unless you are willing to back up your "concern" with _force_.
Maduro trafficked humans, colluded with terrible gangs, was working with Iran, and had so many opportunities to stop. He was given an olive branch by the current US government and ignored it. He fucked around, now he found out.
If you want Putin to stop harassing Ukraine, you either are willing to go to the FO stage, or your words are wind. Because Russia is. And now, luckily, so is the US, and my way of life as a Norwegian is _so much more_ aligned with the US way of life than China or Russia or a socialist dictatorship like Venezuela was under for decades. I _want_ my allies to be able to enforce my world view _if and when_ our opponents don't respect us.
Edit: The EU is a perfect example of an (unelected) ruling body that plays nice with everyone, diplomacy first, always concerned, never willing to back up anything by force. Your perfect utopia judging by your own words. They _never_ get _anything_ done, and nobody respects them. Especially not its enemies like Russia or China. Spineless bureaucrats that are so far removed from everyday human reality they don't even understand how laws _work_.
You’re conflating two different things: defending allies against invasion (Ukraine, Taiwan) and unilateral regime change (Venezuela, Iraq, Libya).
I agree that deterrence requires credible force. Defending Ukraine from Russian invasion is enforcement of a principle (sovereignty) against an aggressor. That’s fundamentally different from the US deciding a government is bad and removing it.
The problem isn’t “using force ever.” It’s “using force to overthrow governments we don’t like, without allies, without a plan for what comes next, based on a track record of catastrophic failures.”
Norway’s security depends on NATO credibility, which depends on the US being seen as a rule-enforcing power rather than a rule-breaking one. Every time the US acts unilaterally, it makes it harder to maintain the coalitions that actually protect your way of life. Russia points to Iraq and Libya to justify its own actions. You’re not strengthening the enforcement regime; you’re eroding the legitimacy that makes enforcement possible.
“Fucked around and found out” is a framework for bar fights, not foreign policy.
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China has a good economy and export business that it wants to protect, which “protects” Taiwan since much of their export business goes poof if they decide to invade the island. The “detachment” of the US and Chinese economies makes an invasion of Taiwan more likely, not less. Economic entanglement has led to more peace than military force projection.
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The EU isn’t my utopia, and I’m not sure where you got that. My point is narrower: unilateral regime change has a bad track record, and defending allies against invasion is a different category of action. You seem to be arguing against a position I don’t hold.
We’ve gone from “Venezuelans are celebrating” to “the EU is spineless bureaucrats.” I think we’re past the original topic of discussion at this point.