Comment by shevy-java

> But thanks to Ruby on Rails, he doesn't have to! So he said that he has no particular opinion about the Ruby programming language, but he absolutely loves Rails.

Ruby got a hype phase with regards to rails. It then dropped. A lot.

TIOBE, while it is in general crap, is somewhat accurate when you plot things over time:

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ruby/

So, ruby peaked with rails between 2006 to 2009 or so, give or take. Then the decline phase set in, and now it is unfortunately also crawling behind perl into extinction. This is very unfortunate - I still use ruby almost daily as the ultimate glue language. But this can not be denied now that ruby is following the extinction path perl already had going some years before.

I was using ruby before rails was created and ruby covers all my web-needs. I had a web-framework in PHP, used it for about three years, ported it into ruby and expanded it massively in the last 20 years or so (well, almost 20 years). I retired from rubygems.org when RubyCentral got crazy in 2024 (and even crazier in 2025 with the mass purge of developers). So, one difference here is that the friend he talks about is using a specific framework. He probably no longer uses ruby nor rails. I use ruby because the language is very well designed and covers (most of my) use cases; the rest I may sprinkle down with java. So whether rails exists or not, makes zero difference to me. Actually without rails it would be better, because people using ruby would be using it because of ... ruby. Even if there are then fewer users. I still think this is better than those who will jump ship anyway because they only use ruby due to rails. These guys are not like in the same boat. They have use cases for getting work done via rails, designing websites, infrastructure related to websites, user-interaction and so forth. But they don't really use ruby as such. Their use case is quite limited. I think this is one of the biggest problems here. It in part explains why ruby dropped down a lot (there are many reasons for this, python being so successful is in my opinion the biggest reason, but the other smaller reasons also add up - that also includes the laughable joke that is documentation in the whole ruby ecosystem. That's inexcusable - note, I am not saying documentation must be perfect, but please look at opal, ruby-wasm or rack - the documentation there is virtually NOT EXISTING.)

> The vast majority of programmers are non-experts, like himself

No, I think he is an expert - just in a specific niche and field. Not all experts know everything equally well.

> Subtle language features like first-class functions, and object systems, are lost on them because they don't really use them anyway.

I don't think this is true. Some language features are very useful. Ruby's blocks for instance. They are probably one of the top three win-win features ruby offers.

> Computer scientists should really be spending their time developing new libraries rather than inventing new programming languages.

I also disagree here. I would, however had, say, that new languages should be well-designed. Many new languages suck. Old languages also suck. Designing a great language is very hard. If it is just a toy or research language then this is fine, but once a language is meant to be "real", it really needs to have compelling use cases and be great in many areas including documentation.

> These features are simply not available in all other languages. Java's meta-programming features, for example, are just not powerful enough to implement a system like ActiveRecords. Rails is only possible because of Ruby.

That's also incorrect. You can create any DSL as you like in Java too. Ruby just makes this a lot easier out of the box. Plus, you can also have great websites without rails.

> Ruby on Rails was designed to make it possible to build websites without understanding type theory, or memory management, or object-oriented design patterns.

Ok so ... why would this not be possible in Java? Why would he have to write Java code for a library to be used in this regard?

> Ruby on Rails provides a concise way for expressing: do this when the button is clicked

But you have the same in many other languages and frameworks too. I mean this is how PHP was started initially.

> The "do this" part is implemented in Ruby as a first-class function. How would it be implemented in languages like Java which don't support them?

Write a solid DSL.

> The programming language directly shapes the design of its libraries.

If this were true, why would GTK have glib+vala? I mean, they could just rely on C directly, right?

Besides, ruby is just a wrapper over C really.

> The more powerful the language, the easier the libraries are to use.

That part is true. A better designed language makes for better libraries or a chance to have better libraries. I noticed this when I compared my PHP code to my ruby code. I am not a good programmer, but my ruby code is much better on every level than the equivalent PHP code. Fewer lines too. While this also has to do with experience, at the end of the day PHP is simply a much worse language than Ruby is. At some point I decided I don't want to invest into languages that suck when I could be using better languages instead. That is also why I stopped writing shell scripts - it is just a waste of time having them.

Rails is also, by the way, fairly well documented. So I am not saying all in ruby has horrible documentation of course.