Comment by rdcooper
3 days ago
I notice I often have very strong knee-jerk reactions to these kind of comments.
It's usually from some person that has not spent very much time meditating at all or invested much time around the various cultures which treasure and pride themselves in their meditative practices. It usually goes something like:
"[Some kind of reasoning], therefore, there is no need to meditate."
I'd like to provide an analogy which I think fits:
We use our muscles every day. If you just use your muscles well, there's no need for strength training!
And sure, I mean, that KIND of works. But like... There's a LOT of research around the benefits of strength training. And there's a multitude of reasons why someone might want to get involved in strength training. Very few people aspire to become powerlifters, etc.
IMHO, it's a dangerous view to take, as it can lead to dismissal of a lot of fantastic use cases, and it leads to people dismissing meditation outright ("No doctor, my friend said that if I just move correctly, I don't need strength training!").
And yes, similar to strength, there's no upper limit on training for things like focus, concentration, mindfulness.
There's no 'need' for meditation sure, but by that logic there's no 'need' for most things.
What seems to be true to me is that it's absolutely fantastic in terms of technologies available to us for self (and also society)-improvement.
The Buddha used the analogy that once you reach the other shore you discard the boat.
The idea of no longer needing formal meditation after enlightenment isn't new.
It’s strongly rejected by most schools of zen, fwiw. Using meditation as a tool to get somewhere, then discarding it once you are “there” is not zen buddhism.
One interpretation is: Because you are now always in a meditative state.
I am doubtful of the scientific validity and am definitively not dismissive of cultures that use meditations for inquiry into Self.
Strength training is a good example because it is an immensley stressful activity with adaptations that sometimes go into tics.
I believe I’ve read accounts of experienced meditators also stressing themselves to the verge of lunacy. Some even deal with panic attacks , unannounced, despite lecturing on inner peace.
Dedicated mediators sometimes experience signs and symptoms of psychosis
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8380174/
In general psychosis-proneness is a quantity that people have more or less, some people have harmless hallucinations or "unusual experiences" but psychosis-prone people have more trouble when they are under more stress. Some researchers think that meditation practice could be protective
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-01856-y
Personally mindless use of the word "mindful" is a pet peeve of mine because I knew somebody who would talk about mindfulness just before he walked into an open pit. Also back when I was more anxious I always thought my mind was "full" by default and wanted to empty it, I found that many practices would just fill my mind up with more noise.
someone who needs mindfulness might know they need it and thus talk about it
> I knew somebody who would talk about mindfulness just before he walked into an open pit.
Ironically (or not), there is a Buddhist story about this...
A monk comes to see his master, and announces that he had achieved perfect mindfulness.
The master said, "That is wonderful! And, when you came in, how many umbrellas were by the door?"
The monk realized he had not achieved perfect mindfulness.
There are claims and links to scientific studies in this article.
https://www.skepticspath.org/blog/what-is-the-science-of-med...
Fascinating repy:
> I often have very strong knee-jerk reactions to these kind of comments.
OK, YOU have an overwhelmingly emotional reaction to these comments. That is not a very successful path to understanding anything.
> It's usually from some person that has not spent very much time meditating at all or invested much time around the various cultures which treasure and pride themselves in their meditative practices. It usually goes something like:
> "[Some kind of reasoning], therefore, there is no need to meditate."
I do not see anyone arguing anything remotely like this. Perhaps your "knee-jerk reactions" are distorting what people are saying.
There is a lot of scientific research/results based on actual measurable results and biology which supports the benefits of strength training. Can the same be said about meditation?
yes. why don't you bother to look some up instead of antagonizing others?
So many allusions and claims such as your 'yes' in this thread, and yet, not a single actual link/reference to anything actually scientific/verifiable...
Maybe you should actually share a link if you're so sure, instead of crying about being antagonized?
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