Comment by pjmlp
1 day ago
Every attempt since OpenMoko proves the market doesn't care.
And in what concerns the mainstream desktop/laptop market, macOS Linux VMs, WSL, ChromeOS, versus GNU/Linux OEM devices, proves most people doesn't care either what they can get at regular computer stores, otherwise GNU/Linux configurations would not be online only at very specific shops.
Mobile is a massive chicken-and-egg problem. The main purpose of a smartphone these days is to run apps. Nobody is going to buy a smartphone which can't run the apps they need in their day-to-day life. On the other hand, no company is going to write apps for a platform with basically zero users.
OpenMoko & friends are selling devices which basically only run Firefox, and sometimes make calls as well. The only people interested in that are diehard FLOSS enthusiasts, which means they have to use ancient hardware because new stuff doesn't have open drivers, which means that even if you ignore the app ecosystem they compare incredibly poorly to mainstream smartphones. No wonder they keep failing.
Interestingly, the desktop/laptop market is heading the other way. The move to cloud SaaS products means a decent number of people now only need a browser. What's keeping a lot of people on Windows is often literally one or two applications. Valve's push for Proton is the perfect example of this: the Steam Deck is providing a huge incentive to fix those last few bugs keeping a game from running on Linux, and with the way Microsoft is screwing up W11 it is now ironically the gamers who are moving to Linux.
What you are seeing in "regular computer stores" is mostly irrelevant. That market is basically dead. Corporate gets its machines directly from Dell/HP/Lenovo, PC enthusiasts mostly get custom builds, and casual people stick with smartphones and tablets. In-store PC sales is now reduced to a university student's Google Docs machine - and Microsoft is doing a pretty good job bribing the manufacturers to push Windows there.
What I see is regular people buy their computers at Media Market, Cool Blue, Saturn, Fnac, Public, Dixon, you name it.
Most of them have no clue that something like System 76 or Tuxedo exists in first place.
Likewise on corporate world, I have long moved into Windows/macOS as official desktops for the last decade, GNU/Linux is only available on VM or servers, and usually it is the cloud provider's own distro.
Those customers where IT allowed the use of GNU/Linux desktops, it was with zero support from them, it was up to us to deal ourselves with any issues preventing our work, and to deal with upper management, in case it impacts delivery.
Until SteamDeck gets rid of its dependency on Windows as source, it is pretty much irrelevant. Games developers will keep using their Windows workstations, while a community smaller than Switch, will get those games thanks to Proton.
And it remains to be seen for how long Microsoft will tolerate Steam, or use their weight as OS vendor, and one of the biggest publishers.
> Games developers will keep using their Windows workstations, while a community smaller than Switch, will get those games thanks to Proton.
Mobile GNU/Linux might end up in a similar situation if projects like Waydroid[0] can be well-integrated into the system, or if the mobile hardware becomes powerful enough to run it well.
[0]: https://waydro.id
OpenMoko phones were too underpowered to run Firefox, but they could run a ton of other apps. I was running non-AI automated human language translation on the thing.
You know, I could do without the telephone and SMS features nowadays. I just need a data SIM. Then the device just needs to run a Linux distro with a mobile UI.
I'm pretty sure my Linux desktop version of Signal runs great on small screens.
Aren't people using fewer apps than ever?
At least for mean almost everything has moved into the browser except, Whatsapp, maps, and music
> Every attempt since OpenMoko proves the market doesn't care.
It's because people like you are constantly repeating this mantra of security nihilism [0], instead of spreading the word about true alternatives existing today, Librem 5 and Pinephone.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27897975
How much does Librem 5 cost? Are they able to deliver reasonably up-to-date set of features that general population care? Can you still buy them? Will they deliver in a reasonable amount of time? Will they be able to stay afloat? Can they make enough money to invest in features? Can they support an ecosystem that not only support FOSS but proprietary software too? Can they make contracts with operators to have earlier access to newer tech? Does the cost reflect the value that the customer gets out of them?
The answer for most of those questions is no for both Librem and Pinephone. You cannot even buy Pinephones anymore. This is not nihilism.
> You cannot even buy Pinephones anymore
Sure you can. The Pinephone Pro is discontinued, sadly, but regular Pinephones are able to be purchased, I just double checked the PINE64 store:
https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-conve...
> Are they able to deliver reasonably up-to-date set of features that general population care?
No, they are very much an experiment at the moment.
> Does the cost reflect the value that the customer gets out of them?
Also no, for what they are they are vastly overprices. It makes much more sense to buy an old device that an run Lineage or PMOS.
> Are they able to deliver reasonably up-to-date set of features that general population care?
It doesn't matter. We are not on a mainstream website, we're on HN. You and me can use it as a daily driver (I do). Nothing becomes mainstream and usable by public at the launch (except things advertised by the big tech of course).
> This is not nihilism.
Did you read the linked article? It's not about getting to 100% security/freedom without any effort. This is about giving up, as you did.
> How much does Librem 5 cost?
Yes, it's expensive. If you can't buy it, you can help in many other ways, e.g., by spreading the word or contributing to the free software.
> Can you still buy them?
Yes: https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
> Are they able to deliver reasonably up-to-date set of features that general population care?
It doesn't matter. It can provide you with the main features you may need and add something you can't get anywhere else, https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/docs/community-wiki/-/wikis/F....
Further development can deliver most required features to the public, too, https://puri.sm/posts/closing-the-app-gap-momentum-and-time/.
> Will they deliver in a reasonable amount of time?
Yes, 10 working days, according to their website, https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
> Will they be able to stay afloat?
It doesn't matter: The phone runs the mainline kernel and not locked down, it will be able to receive all updates even without Purism. You can install any other OS, too.
> Can they make enough money to invest in features?
Seems like no, because virtually nobody knows about them, even on HN. And, again, it doesn't really matter.
> Can they support an ecosystem that not only support FOSS but proprietary software too?
Why?
> Can they make contracts with operators to have earlier access to newer tech?
This is pure nihilism. Only Apple and Google can do that, so we're all doomed, right? However Purism have been trying, not without some progress, https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/
> Does the cost reflect the value that the customer gets out of them?
Probably yes, https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/docs/community-wiki/-/wikis/F...
Typed and submitted entirely on my Librem 5.
Which aren't that great user experience for normal users anyway, with the apps and games everyone else on their friends circle is using, or needed for work.
Security not only matters, we are still far away from the same liability as in other industries.
GNU/Linux also had as baseline what other UNIXes were capable of, and even that had to grew for ACLs, NSA's LinuxSE, and containers.