Comment by throw4436y54
2 days ago
This comment reminds me of when I talked to a few Chinese friends about their thoughts on Mao. They all acknowledged the failed policies which led to famine, yet they also admired that he basically gave Chinese people their pride back.
They related him to an uncle figure who became a mean drunk.
I used to say the same thing about Ronald Reagan -- a president who did many questionable/bad things, but he lifted the U.S. out of the doldrums we experienced in the late '70s.
Over time I've learned context about how those doldrums occurred, and more about what Reagan actually did, and the trade seems much less worthwhile. :-/
Are you talking about Iran-Contra? Because that's quaint by today's standards. Trump could do Iran-Contra on a Tuesday and people would be done talking about it by Thursday.
Nope, I knew about Iran-Contra years back. I'm thinking of the economic policy, the AIDS mishandling, the rest of the middle east shenanigans, the various military escapades, and on and on.
1 reply →
RE ".....Ronald Reagan -- a president who did many questionable/bad things..."
Not being in the common demographic of this site , I had to google this - as I was not aware of any ..... It educated me. It made me immedicably wonder where the current president would fit into ... since the google also had questions and claimed answers/OPINIONS too " who was worst US president etc... The current presidents situation is still being played out - obviously ...
The famine stuff I could write off as honest mistakes by a misguided but well meaning leader. Mao's role in kicking off the Cultural Revolution as part of his internal power struggle with the CCP can hardly be excused the same way, it was profoundly evil. The CCP today can recognize some of the faults with Mao, and even acknowledge that the Cultural Revolution was a disaster, but shy away from acknowledging Mao's causal role in that.
“Thus, the Communist and Cultural Revolutions represent some of the most radical attempts in human history to eliminate the advantages of the elite, and to eradicate inequality in wealth and formal education.”
http://davidyyang.com/pdfs/revolutions_draft.pdf
I'm just glad Dilbert's creator is in the same thread as Chairman Mao
It's a shame he's not around to get really upset about it.
He'd probably be flattered, Mao was one of histories greatest influencer of minds after all.
Of nothing else, he was impressive at melting down.
I’ve met too many (mostly martial) artists who have stories of their lineage having to hide their art during Mao or a similar dark period in other parts of East Asia to see these people as an uncle. More like the kid in high school you found out is serving two consecutive life sentences and saying, yeah that tracks.
> This comment reminds me of when I talked to a few Chinese friends about their thoughts on Mao.
There has been a push under Xi's leadership to whitewash a lot of the past, especially involving Mao. As Xi has been positioning himself as a somewhat father figure of the nation. This has resulted in a revival of Mao policies, like the little red book.
So do not be surprised about uncle figure statement...
Well that’s the kicker right? Mao gave way for later leaders who lifted China out of poverty. The normalization of all this craziness is what led the USA to where it is today. Two quite different trajectories.
Not very different. In fact, both endpoints seem very similar, even though the starts were different.
If anything, the US is still far away from as bad as China.
> If anything, the US is still far away from as bad as China
That is a matter of opinion
I am unsure about social conditions within the countries ( freedom Vs. economic security -hard to compare)
But in international relations the USA has been a rouge state for many decades (e.g. tjr Gulf of Tonkin deception). The USA pretends to care about "values", but does not, it cares about it's own interests
China is plain speaking and cares, openly and transparently, about its interests
The USA has institutionalised hypocrisy. China sins her own sins in the open
The USA is much worse than China - to foreigners
3 replies →
Sounds like what some American will say in two or three years, except for the excuse about being drunk.
That's because they've been indoctrinated - Mao was a complete disaster in every way but admitting that is a step too far for the CCP. The cultural revolution was the worst thing to ever happen to Chinese cultural history and connection to the past (since destroying that was the entire aim of it). Sun Yat-Sen is a far better example of someone worth venerating as a moderniser who didn't want to destroy everything from the past.
Pride made it worth it?!
It is very important to understand where the Chinese have just come from. British Imperialism and Japan's occupation were pretty much civilizational trauma events.
Opium Wars, Rape of Nanking. Things had been pretty hardcore for the Chinese for quite some time when Mao took power.
Don't forget the decades of fragmentation and civil war.
People that take power in those kinds of environments rarely trend towards genteel treatment of their political enemies in the peace that follows.
1 reply →
Having married a Chinese person. Yes. Despite the massive issues with the cultural revolution and communism in general, they are taught to be aware that it was Mao who threw off imperialism. Chinese are self governing because of him. Right or wrong, that is how they feel.
I think it's possible to throw off the yoke of imperialism without then promptly dipping right into totalitarianism.
21 replies →
Them and every other country. American kids are taught how the founding fathers cast off the yoke of british imperialism. I think every country has a national origin story they drill into their citizens to justify the state.
They were building an imperium themselves before and after.
It’s historically incorrect though.
After the 1911 Revolution imperial possessions were a few stripes of land in Shanghai.
It was mostly civil war after that until 1937, and KMT fighting the Japanese.
Then another civil war in 1945.
Mao could be viewed as unifying the country under one government, but fighting imperialism? The CCP played a small role.
Huh? Mao didn't even found the CCP. Arguably, Chiang Kai-shek had more to do with "throwing off imperialism" than Mao.
Might you elaborate? My slight understanding is that the 1911 Xinhai Revolution ended Qing imperial rule - leading to a chaotic period, then Chiang Kai-shek's brutal consolidation of power in the late 1920's. He was able to reduce most foreign imperialism in the following decade...except for the <cough/> small matter of the Imperial Japanese Army invading China. And by siding with the often-vile local gentry to help consolidate power over the peasants - he repeated a "deal with the devil" which had previously been made by the Qing, when putting down the White Lotus Rebellion.
Post-WWII, Chiang Kai-shek was far too friendly with the defeated, disgraced, and oft-hated Japanese military. And the blatantly racist Americans. Vs. Mao was friendly with (if often made out to be a tool of) the Soviets - hardly nice people, but in China far less ill-behaved or loathed. Since Mao won the Chinese Civil War - with considerable help from the Soviets, and far more help from the cruelty, corruption, and poor company of the Nationalist regime - then "dialed back" Soviet power and influence over the following decades, he'd seem the obvious winner of the "Freed China from Foreign Domination" crown.
More like a sober uncle who killed other family members.