Comment by ccozan
17 hours ago
Telekom is well known for the crappy service - but they have a de facto monopoly. For example, when it rains, the line goes down where I live.
Solution: I got my Starlink. 3x speed. No crappy service. Weather independent. And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) .
[ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everywere from sattelite ]
> And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) .
> [ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everywere from sattelite ]
Right - but then you also depend on an US service here. And the USA changed policy where Europeans became enemies ("we won't give you arms to defend against Russian invaders! Greenland will be occupied by our military soon!").
It's a bad situation, lose-lose here. I don't think the price difference is the primary problem though; the behaviour of Telekom is the problem. That must change. The state has to ensure fairness rather than allow monopolies to milk The People.
> he behaviour of Telekom is the problem. That must change. The state has to ensure fairness rather than allow monopolies to milk The People.
The state is the monopoly here.
Telekom is still partially state-owned (~27%), since they were, back in the 90s, privatized from the former total monopoly "Deutsche Bundespost" and the related ministry "Bundespostministerium". Nowadays, the parts of the ministry that were back then regulating EM spectrum, allowable phones (basically phone police, you had to rent from Bundespost or go to jail) and generally being corrupt (relations of the former ministry to copper manufacturers is why they botched the first fibre rollouts in '95 and then ignored the topic for 20 years). Nowadays, the "Regulierungsbehoerde", staffed with the same people, is supposed to regulate their former colleagues at Telekom. Telekom got all the networks and was never split up, so it still has a (~85%?) monopoly on everything copper basically, as well as on customers, using this monopoly to bully other ISPs as well as it's own customers and extending this monopoly into future tech. And the state has a financial interest in this regulation being as lax as possible. So you can imagine how this goes...
The best solution here would probably be the EU launching its own internet constellation. China and the US both have them. How is this any different than the issues surrounding GPS?
Well there is one : Eutelsat OneWeb
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The EU did do that, decades ago. The problem is that it requires constant investment. It's not profitable. The governments helped build it, abandoned the companies until they went bankrupt, rescued them (they're not actually insane enough to just abandon working satellites), privatized them, they went bankrupt, ...
Obviously the satellites were never modernized. But it does work, for a few thousand terminals for all of Europe with 2x to 10x the ping Starlink provides.
It's like a lot of things in the EU: on the one hand the EU absolutely requires this infrastructure, or they become dependent on foreign nations for critical infrastructure. But they won't pay. It's not even that expensive. Starlink was built with budgets that would be double-digit millions per year per EU country. But the main problem always repeats: they can't agree who gets the money/business.
If you calculate the lifespan and cost of a Starlink satellite you will come to the obvious conclusion: it will be very hard for Starlink to break even. Of course, the same can be said for most of Musk's businesses (perhaps all. I'm not actually aware of any exceptions)
A better solution is guaranteed broadband internet for all people living in Germany. With heavy fines if ISPs can't deliver that.
Well, you have a point but on the other side since about 20 years the Telekom does not even think about improving the internet connection in the place I live. At some point you're just fed up. To me it seems like they just do not care about providing a good service and even if they would now provide a good service I would be more willing to give my money someone else.
are all starlink connections routed through the US?
don't they do local downlinks? at least for countries they have an agreement with or where the infrastructure is available?
What does it matter where they are routed through? You think your Starlink service in Germany is beyond the control of Musk or the US government?
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No. My endpoint is in Berlin. Which implies there is a EU based major downlink somewhere.
Who owns and controls starlink? A local downlink dish or a US defense contractor?
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It was hilarious when I checked the movie listings for this week and found Greenland 2 in its opening run.
So I went to YouTube and rented Greenland (2010). It was a hoot! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_(film)
I wrote "it's the second funniest rom-com I've ever seen". But seriously, it was filmed in close collaboration with the United States Air Force. (Much like Mission: Impossible was a collab between US Gov and US Mil units.)
It is kind of a fun ride if you're willing to suspend that much disbelief.
But I just found it hilarious that a pair of films named and set in Greenland should be produced in this way, while the actual country is in our news cycle now. I almost feel like it's a "PR buzz campaign".
> Telekom is well known for the crappy service - but they have a de facto monopoly. For example, when it rains, the line goes down where I live.
Haha, I used to have that as well when tech swapped from ADSL2 to VDSL2 (IIRC skipped out on VDSL1), except then the line wasn't down, I'd have severe packet loss (which resulted in lag in gaming, and disconnects). So they blamed our inner house's phone lines. Then some dude came, checked everything in the house, and couldn't find the issue. I said of course not, it isn't raining.
After it got escalated further it turned out it was rotten equipment at the DSLAM. They replaced it and boom, problem was gone.
No hair on my head (and I ain't bald knock on wood) wants to have all my internet traffic first routed through an American neonazi, but if the choice is nothing (or something severely broken) or that, I can see where you are coming from. Whereas I can pick between FttH (XGS-PON), DSL (VDSL2), or cable. With the latter two being fiber up till a few hunderd meters to my house (I know where both PoPs physically are in the neighborhood, as I have seen technicians on both places). The fiber one is further away, and larger (for more households), but that is OK. It can handle that much distance. Technician showed me a photo from his smartphone when my fiber got down due to specifically my fiber connectivity destroyed at the PoP. That was a lot of fiber I saw. Good cable management though.
It was a busines decision for me: being in customer meetings and suddenly dropping out was unacceptable. Or not being able to access critical data. Vodafone LTA coverage is average at best and data is severily limited ( 15 GBs ). Really out of options here!!
While I chuckled at "American neonazi", the company SpaceX is doing great things.
My experience was slightly different. I mean, yes, there pretty much no 'non crappy' German internet providers, but nothing was as bad as Vodafone.
Not true.
https://www.lwlhome.de/
I didn't say there are none at all. And I've heard that internet from small internet providers can actually be good.
But after living in 3 different apartments there, I never had a luxury to be able to connect the internet from a small provider. Their coverage is very, very limited. So it always was Telekom/Vodafone/o2.
Thats cool and all but the majority of the country still has one, or at most two choices :/
same as https://www.m-net.de/ Advantage over telekom: they own the city and the can lay fiber whereever they want without state intervention.
Telefonica enters the chat.w
I'm glad Vodafone is available where I live. They're not better but at least they're an alternative. Also Telekom manages only to deliver 250mbit/s while Vodafone gets 1gbit/s.
Last apartment I rented Telekom was the only option and that was one of the reasons why I decided to move.
Starlink I would love to try but as there's building and trees blocking the horizon it's not an option here sadly.
Not an alternative anymore. Vodafone started doing the same shit with their peering at the end of last year.
Both throttle in my area unless we vpn so I just share a vpn with a friend to fix it.
Vodafone seems also terrible, but maybe better than DT?
How can a satellite connection be more weather independent than a landline? Not questioning your statement. Just wondering what could be the reason. A segment with a long distance directional antenna?
With ADSL: broken waterproofing somewhere along the line, water gets into the cables or connections == broken while it's raining.
Then you call their customer support, tech comes out, it's not raining anymore and everything works, and the problem doesn't get fixed.
Exactly what I am suspecting! I called so many times: nothing found all works as expected.
As for the starlink: I noticed that clouds or weather ( rain snow ) does not have a true effect. Must be the frequency is not absorbed by the water in the air or similar effects. Only hard blocking with construction or big canopies of trees is struggling.
I don't have think this is sustainable. There can physically be only so many satellites before we reach Kessler syndrome. The costs will rise as the quality of service falls, and there market for alternative land-based ISPs will not have developed.
Depending on the age of Starlink you could add 10-30 to the bill for its power consumption.
>For example, when it rains, the line goes down where I live.
Sounds like an access line issue with DSL (lol)
DSL is so old you can't even order it in Sweden anymore.
Also, the post above would be a core issue not access.
Excuse me, I remember when DSL was the latest and greatest, it can't possibly be this old. :')
That would be ~25 years ago. I remember getting my first ADSL connection around 2000 in the Netherlands when that stuff was still very new.
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I mean yes me too, but that was in 2005. I feel like "everyone" got fibre here 10 years ago and if not there is 4/5G mobile broadband.
Except that with Telekom they answer to the German courts which might eventually force them to stop doing this but with Starlink you're at the mercy of some dudes halfway across the globe. If/when Starlink reaches the enshittification phase, there will be very little in the way.
The bright side of this is that there is at least some sort of competition, since they operate on very different infrastucture. This is the free market premise on how quality and price should improve. Reality is often different though, because most customers are not really comparing and/or voting with their feet.
Meh, the threat vector to me as a resident of Germany is the German government - not some dude at the other end of the world. What is Musk going to do? Ban me from Twitter? Not sell me a Tesla?
That's nothing compared to what German authorities can do to me. Germany is a country where you get police searching your home for torrenting movies or making stupid jokes on Facebook. So yeah.
Also about enshittification - one could argue that our local ISPs never left that phase to begin with.
He could just turn off Starlink in Germany. And yes, German ISPs suck donkey ass.
He could sell information about which websites you visit.
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German courts are expected to be much more hostile towards German citizens than any foreign powers or individuals.
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This person just wants internet that doesn't frequently cut out.
Don't blame them for their choices. Blame Telekom and its shareholders for not being able to reliably supply broadband internet in 2026. Blame the government for not having consumer protection regarding right to internet access. But don't blame this person for just doing what is necessary for having basic internet access.
Come on... He survived before and now he supports a democracy killer