Comment by burky
2 days ago
I think it's more than just poorly trained agents. Also framing it as "a gun goes off" doesn't track with the video footage I saw.
2 days ago
I think it's more than just poorly trained agents. Also framing it as "a gun goes off" doesn't track with the video footage I saw.
The point is, when tense situations happen, you need to have everyone keep their cool. If someone flinches, people die. Repeat this situation many many times over a day, and tragedies will happen.
The shooting of Alex Pretti was a long chain of escalatory and poor decisions on the part of ICE (well, assuming here that "good" is defined by not shooting people, I'm sure some in this admin might disagree). I might come off too sympathetic to ICE. I am not, but the real killers here are the ones creating these kinds of situations, the ones using ICE as a political gain machine. I'm sure that ICE has its shares of psychopaths, but giving them reign in the first place... those people empowering them have blood on their hands.
> The point is, when tense situations happen, you need to have everyone keep their cool. If someone flinches, people die. Repeat this situation many many times over a day, and tragedies will happen.
Except that "flinching" is not happening. An earlier comment of mine:
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On the most recent event, a reduced-speed video showing one agent (centre, bent over at beginning) removing the victim's firearm from his waistband, then a second agent (left) waiting for the first to get clear, and then pulling his pistol (video stops before any shooting):
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46754974
The second waited for the first guy to be clear, then drew, then started shooting. He was waiting for his opportunity.
I saw the video, it was horrifying. My (admittedly, attempting to be as charitable as possible to murderers) take is that the one taking the weapon must have said he has a gun, and the first shooter reacted to that. It's a very sad day for the US, Alex Pretti seemed like a great person and what happened was disgraceful.
I still think that the most dangerous thing from this whole situation is how this admin frames it and effectively encourages ICE to kill people further, because there will be no consequence for them. Essentially, same thing they did with the Jan 6 protesters.
1 reply →
>The point is, when tense situations happen, you need to have everyone keep their cool.
That's why we train law enforcement to de-escalate instead of doing what they are doing right now, which is antagonizing and brutalizing. You absolve them of their crimes when you pretend that this was all inevitable.
I am totally against ICE, but I came here to say that I agree with the parent. In situations of stress like this, you never know how one may react. It takes a great deal of training to be able to stay calm and rational in such situations.
Obviously, the ICE agents have to rationalise what they do. "We are the good guy, we work against the bad guys". But I don't think that they wake up in the morning hoping that they will have an opportunity to hurt what they themselves consider "average americans".
Looking at the video, I could totally imagine that the first shot fired was a mistake, and then one or more of the agents panic and shoot... well... a LOT of times. That doesn't seem rational, or professional. I don't think that the agent thinks "ahah! Here is my opportunity, I'll shoot him 5 more times". Still, they killed someone for no apparent reason (it's not a proportional defense, quite obviously) and they should be judged for that.
> It takes a great deal of training to be able to stay calm and rational in such situations.
Then why are they letting people take these positions without specific training and why are they letting them return to work immediately after making fatal mistakes? Why are those above them immediately covering up their mistakes and why are their colleagues illegally tampering with evidence after the events take place?
I totally agree.
"In situations of stress like this, you never know how one may react."
Yes, please don't give those people guns.
They have made it so abundantly clear that they absolutely do not see these people as "average Americans" that i genuinely do not know how you can say so.