Comment by Quothling
8 hours ago
I'm an external examiner for CS students in Denmark and I disagree with you. What we need in the industry is software engineers who can think for themselves, can interact with the business and understand it's needs, and, they need to know how computers work. What we get are mass produced coders who have been taught some outdated way of designing and building software that we need to hammer out of them. I don't particularily care if people can write code like they work at the assembly line. I care that they can identify bottlenecks and solve them. That they can deliver business value quickly. That they will know when to do abstractions (which is almost never). Hell, I'd even like developers who will know when the code quality doesn't matter because shitty code will cost $2 a year but every hour they spend on it is $100-200.
Your curriculum may be different than it is around here, but here it's frankly the same stuff I was taught 30 years ago. Except most of the actual computer science parts are gone, replaced with even more OOP, design pattern bullshit.
That being said. I have no idea how you'd actually go about teaching students CS these days, considering a lot of them will probably use ChatGPT or Claude regardless of what you do. That is what I see in the statistic for grades around here. For the first 9 years I was a well calibrated grader, but these past 1,5ish years it's usually either top marks or bottom marks with nothing in between. Which puts me outside where I should be, but it matches the statistical calibration for everyone here. I obviously only see the product of CS educations, but even though I'm old, I can imagine how many corners I would have cut myself if I had LLM's available back then. Not to mention all the distractions the internet has brought.
> I don't particularily care if people can write code like they work at the assembly line. I care [...] That they can deliver business value quickly.
In my experience, people who talk about business value expect people to code like they work at the assembly line. Churn out features, no disturbances, no worrying about code quality, abstractions, bla bla.
To me, your comment reads contradictory. You want initiative, and you also don't want initiative. I presume you want it when it's good and don't want it when it's bad, and if possible the people should be clairvoyant and see the future so they can tell which is which.
I think we very often confuse engineers with scientists in this field. Think of the old joke: “anyone can build a bridge, it takes an Engineer to build one that barely stands”. Business value and the goal of engineering is to make a bridge that is fast to build, cheap to make, and stays standing exactly as long as it needs to. This is very different from the goals of science which are to test the absolute limits of known performance.
What I read from GP is that they’re looking for engineering innovation, not new science. I don’t see it as contradictory at all.
You should worry about code quality, but you should also worry about the return on investment.
That includes understanding risk management and knowing what the risks and costs are of failures vs. the costs of delivering higher quality.
Engineering is about making the right tradeoffs given the constraints set, not about building the best possible product separate from the constraints.
Sometimes those constraints requires extreme quality, because it includes things like "this should never, ever fail", but most of the time it does not.
Some of our code is of high quality. Other can be of any quality as it'll never need to be altered in it's lifecycle. If we have 20000 financial reports which needs to be uploaded once, and then it'll never happen again, it really doesn't matter how terrible the code is as long as it only uses vetted external dependencies. The only reason you'd even use developer time on that task is because it's less errorprone than having student interns do it manually... I mean, I wish I could tell you it was to save them from a terrible task, but it'll solely be because of money.
If it's firmware for a solar inverter in Poland, then quality matters.
> people who talk about business value expect people to code like they work at the assembly line. Churn out features, no disturbances, no worrying about code quality, abstractions, bla bla.
That's typical misconception that "I'm an artist, let me rewrite in Rust" people often have. Code quality has a direct money equivalent, you just need to be able to justify it for people that pay you salary.
Let them use AI and then fall on their faces during exam time - simple as that. If you can't recall the theory, paradigm, methodology, whatever by memory then you have not "mastered" the content and thus, should fail the class.
> That they will know when to do abstractions
The only way to learn when abstractions are needed is to write code, hit a dead end, then try and abstract it. Over and over. With time, you will be able to start seeing these before you write code.
AI does not do abstractions well. From my experience, it completely fails to abstract anything unless you tell it to. Even when similar abstractions are already present. If you never learn when an abstraction is needed, how can you guide an AI to do the same well?
> That being said. I have no idea how you'd actually go about teaching students CS these days, considering a lot of them will probably use ChatGPT or Claude regardless of what you do.
My son is in a CS school in France. They have finals with pen and paper, with no computer whatsoever during the exam; if they can't do that they fail. And these aren't multiple choice questions, but actual code that they have to write.
I had to do that too, in Norway. Writing C++ code with pen and paper and being told even trivial syntax errors like missing semicolons would be penalised was not fun.
This was 30 years ago, though - no idea what it is like now. It didn't feel very meaningful even then.
But there's a vast chasm between that and letting people use AI in an exam setting. Some middle ground would be nice.
I wrote code in a spiral notebook because the mainframe was not available to me at home.
(U880 - GDR Z80 8 bit CPU clone)
I wrote assembler on pages of paper. Then I used tables, and a calculator for the two's-complement relative negative jumps, to manually translate it into hex code. Then I had software to type in such hex dumps and save them to audio cassette, from which I could then load them for execution.
I did not have an assembler for my computer. I had a disassembler though- manually typed it in from a computer magazine hex dump, and saved it on an audio cassette. With the disassembler I could check if I had translated everything correctly into hex, including the relative jumps.
The planning required to write programs on sheets of paper was very helpful. I felt I got a lot dumber once I had a PC and actual programmer software (e.g. Borland C++). I found I was sitting in front of an empty code file without a plan more often than not, and wrote code moment to moment, immediately compiling and test running.
The AI coding may actually not be so bad if it encourages people to start with high-level planning instead of jumping into the IDE right away.
2 replies →
> I'm an external examiner for CS students
> Hell, I'd even like developers who will know when the code quality doesn't matter because shitty code will cost $2 a year but every hour they spend on it is $100-200.
> Except most of the actual computer science parts are gone, replaced with even more OOP, design pattern bullshit.
Maybe you should consider a different career, you sound pretty burnt out. There are terrible takes, especially for someone who is supposed to be fostering the next generation of developers.
I don't foster the next generations. I hire them. External examiners are people in the industry who are used as examiners to try and match educations with the needs of the industry.
It can take some people a few years to get over OOP, in the same way that some kids still believe in Santa a bit longer. Keep at it though and you’ll make it there eventually too.
Ah, see, you're outside of the US.
In the US education has been bastardized into "job training"
Good workers don't really need to think in this paradigm.
What is an "external examiner?"
External examiners are people in the industry who are used as examiners to try and match educations with the needs of the industry.
A proctor?