People really need to get things together and investigate these crimes committed against the people.
In no world did we ever allow the government to track our movements or what we think. People are free and are not bound to laws that the gov will simply trample over when they feel like it.
Use encryption, don't tell plans, and keep fighting. We have got this.
The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons.
Economics on its own is probably not sufficient either. You probably also need widespread unionization, a Cordon Sanitaire, and probably German-style intelligence surveillance of the far-right too.
Edit: Looking at the comments below you also need a MUCH better education system. FYI 99% of the time immigration is great for the economy, which is why the US has been wholesale accepting immigrants for a very long time.
If you want to bring in something from the overall European region, Switzerland would be a more appropriate model. Instead of trying to implement constitutionally impossible rules and mandates, work with a model that is more realistic to US policies and expectations.
Yeah I don’t see that happening here either. Maybe in some rich areas, like tech/finance hubs, operating like mini-Switzerlands. Even then, the poor will keep voting for disruption, so those hubs will need private security vs the federal government? I just don’t see how this is possible or at all desirable. I think we have to tackle inequality……
> The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons...
> Economics on its own is probably not sufficient either. You probably also need widespread unionization...
I think you're right about that.
> ...a Cordon Sanitaire, and probably German-style intelligence surveillance of the far-right too.
> Edit: Looking at the comments below you also need a MUCH better education system. FYI 99% of the time immigration is great for the economy, which is why the US has been wholesale accepting immigrants for a very long time.
You're getting off track there.
You also need a democratically responsive government. If the technocrats say "99% of the time immigration is great for the economy" and the people say "we don't want it, less immigration, please," what do you do? If you want a Trump, you say "shut up people, the technocrats say you're wrong, and you're going to get what they recommend good and hard." If you want to avoid a Trump in the future, you say, "OK, we'll tighten the border and reduce immigration quotas."
I don't care how smart or correct you are: if you can't make your case to the people and get your policy widespread popular support, it shouldn't be implemented in a democracy, end of story.
A lot of western societies are aging. If you don’t import immigrants, you’re on a timer. The economy slows, quality of life drops, and people elect the far right anyway. It’s happening to Japan right now. I’d set up the safety nets and hope enough people will appreciate the better cost of living and reelect sane politicians.
Of course there are no guarantees. People hated Obamacare and punished democrats so hard they lost the most seats since Eisenhower.
> If the technocrats say "99% of the time immigration is great for the economy" and the people say "we don't want it, less immigration, please," what do you do?
Do less immigration where people feel it, invest into economic education of the general populace.
Sure, but how do the laws get enforced when law enforcement itself has gone rogue? State governors can't deploy their branches of the National Guard to restore Constitutional law and order without risking that the corrupt federal executive will end up taking control of those as well.
It's mostly the same party, politicians, and cheerleaders who have been dismantling those safety nets, while supporting offshoring and massive handouts to the rich (via the asset bubble). The economic issues driving the destructionist anger are themselves the results of primarily Republican policies becoming un-ignoreable. But rather than any sort of self reflection they're just turning the blame to new scapegoats.
This has effectively been a death spiral for the past several decades - blame the government for incompetence while preventing it from doing anything. For example a major reason that so much power accrued to executive agencies in the first place is the trend of Congressional gridlock kicked off by Newt Gingrich.
As a libertarian I have plenty of criticism of the Democratic party as well, but they're not the ones currently wholesale destroying our Constitution.
As a leftist, i can tell you that any kind of unchecked capitalism or inequality threatens democracies and their constitutions in the long run.
The contradiction of private vs public interests surfaces when growth/ROI demands become harder to achieve. Marx predicted it as diminishing profit rates [0]. The decades of lowering taxes for rich individuals and corporations led to the present budget pressure on institutions, civic decay and agitated uninformed voters. This happens in all capitalistic democracies and we hear the same songs everywhere, about more austerity with a xenophobic background.
As far as I can tell, there's been "mass immigration" since before there was an "America". Colonial settlers in the 17th century, along with Africans taken against their will. Assorted European immigrants in the 18th, along with Asian laborers and Mexicans taken against their will. So on and so forth. There have always been "immigrants". The US and all the other countries in the Americas are immigrant nations.
Welfare state and loose illegal immigration enforcement are at odds policies. Remember in US illegal immigrants can still get WIC and public schooling and their reward for popping out a child is the child now has citizenship and the benefits of such-- those European countries you mention don't normally offer unrestricted jus soli citizenship.
It's 'safety net' itself that helps fuel the immigration rage and delivers people into the hands of the right-wing.
If you work for L3Harris, TechOps Specialty Vehicles (TOSV), Clearview AI, Paragon Solutions, AE Industrial, RedLattice, Magnet Forensics, Grayshift, Penlink, Flock Safety, Ring, LexisNexis, or Palantir, you are a fascist.
How many times do you believe immigration agents showed up door to door with riot gear and rifles back then? When it was caught on camera during the Clinton administration it was one of the most polarizing images of his presidency
That one was controversial not because it was the deportation of an illegal alien rather there were custody issues (abduction accusations) as well as the complication of persecution in the home country —in other words there were multiple issues complicating the deportation. Was he a political prisoner, was he abducted to the US?
You might not be aware of it. It was there though. I had friends going to support families in detention in San Antonio in 2010/11.
Consider that it might be possible you're the one who is actually ignoring stuff based on a political position? And that rather than ignoring it on a Dem/GOP line, the line is between "normal, real adult electoral politics" and all the folks actually doing work to oppose these evil things directly.
A lot of my Democrat-voting friend easily forget Standing Rock or Furguson, but I doubt the people who were there do. By the same token, those same things have oft been forgotten or dismissed by the GOP-identifying friends of mine.
The problem is once you start opening a history book (that's not, say, published for teaching children in Texas) it gets really hard to thing to say "the law is static and started 15 years ago" or even "it's a law so it has ethical weight", and those things are hard to track for most folks and the implications are almost traumatic.
I get that your question is real and a struggle, because that's how it is for many folks in my life, well-intentioned and smart folks who were raised in a system that didn't seem like a problem to them because it fit them well enough, or they were so circumcised by it at an early age that they don't even notice what they've been cut away from.
But for a lot of us, the fact that a bunch of yall got together and decided to vote on who to kick out of the places where we live doesn't hae a lot of moral ethical weight.
Consider that one reason half the folks in the us don't vote is because we know that neither side is going to do anything resembling a good outcome and signing our names to things we don't agree with isn't just a lie but makes us complicit in our own expolitation.
And as yall have gotten ever more violent in practicng yalls "democratically produced" decision, those of us who have, like, an actual moral position are moving ever close to emulating John Brown.
So before the death of the protester everyone was honky dori with the deportations? It’s understood ~60-ish percent of the pop want all aliens deported not only criminal aliens, but there is a large minority that only want criminal aliens deported and a much smaller militant minority that don’t want any illegal aliens deported regardless of severity of crimes committed.
But by the same token - the obstruction of federal agents who are carrying out their lawful mandate was also in that same place.
True, the implementation was messed up. Those unlawful deportation cases should have been the ones to protest. Not demonizing all of ICE or flying Mexican flags.
Okay let's say it is murder (regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges)
What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop?
What drives someone to run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle?
It's like I can understand why someone is a sports fan, despite not following sports myself. I can fully understand, although I don't support, why someone would join the Taliban or Tren De Aragua or whatever other group. I can understand those things. But I still struggle to understand the above.
This is very clearly a loaded question and not a good faith one. You are using the format of a question to express a rhetorical position. You can't just tack on "this is an honest question".
Your premise is incorrect. ICE's conduct is illegal, they are executing people in the streets and deporting US citizens. This is against the law. The majority of US citizens did not vote for Trumpin in 2024, and federal elections do not explicitly involve a vote on policy.
Obama actually pioneered non-judicial deportations. Under his administration, 75% of removals took place without the established immigration hearing process.
Many (most?) ICE deportations taking place today are after "due process" "judicial" hearings, that is, a final order of removal being issued by an immigration "judge." This is generally ignored by news reporting.
The news does not contextualize what is going on. Indeed, you can safely strike the word "unprecendented" from almost all journalism. But it's not only a problem with this story, but most stories. Selective outrage is applied based on the cause and enemy du jour. You are honestly better off not watching the news unless you are willing to do extensive deep dives on a topic, because regardless of your party affiliation or personal feelings or what outlet you subscribe to you are being fed a line of propagandistic BS.
I personally think that mass deportation is a foolish policy. I also accept that it can be done legally. However, the current actions clearly exceed legal boundaries.
4. The administration is openly slandering citizens - claiming they are terrorists without evidence.
5. ICE is conducting mass surveillance of citizens and non-citizens alike.
There are certainly liberals who broadly oppose deportation and who would protest any mass deportation project. However, there, I believe, a lot of us who would grudgingly accept as foolish-but-legal a deportation program that followed the law. What is broadly - across all political stripes - despised is this despotic overreach. And that's what driving people into the streets.
I wasn't outraged until ICE kidnapped two US citizens at gunpoint from their jobs at target, refused to verify citizenship, dragged them away in unmarked vans, beat the shit out of them and dumped them in the snow.
People really need to get things together and investigate these crimes committed against the people.
In no world did we ever allow the government to track our movements or what we think. People are free and are not bound to laws that the gov will simply trample over when they feel like it.
Use encryption, don't tell plans, and keep fighting. We have got this.
Found here
https://archive.ph/2026.01.30-102615/https://www.nytimes.com...
This should not be legal.
Trump, ICE, and all their accomplices don’t give a shit about legality. A law that isn’t being enforced is useless.
https://www.axios.com/local/chicago/2026/01/29/chicago-natio...
The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/10/welfare-cuts...
Economics on its own is probably not sufficient either. You probably also need widespread unionization, a Cordon Sanitaire, and probably German-style intelligence surveillance of the far-right too.
Edit: Looking at the comments below you also need a MUCH better education system. FYI 99% of the time immigration is great for the economy, which is why the US has been wholesale accepting immigrants for a very long time.
If you want to bring in something from the overall European region, Switzerland would be a more appropriate model. Instead of trying to implement constitutionally impossible rules and mandates, work with a model that is more realistic to US policies and expectations.
> High trust, consensus governance
Yeah I don’t see that happening here either. Maybe in some rich areas, like tech/finance hubs, operating like mini-Switzerlands. Even then, the poor will keep voting for disruption, so those hubs will need private security vs the federal government? I just don’t see how this is possible or at all desirable. I think we have to tackle inequality……
Can you give specific examples of what you mean by that?
> The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons...
> Economics on its own is probably not sufficient either. You probably also need widespread unionization...
I think you're right about that.
> ...a Cordon Sanitaire, and probably German-style intelligence surveillance of the far-right too.
> Edit: Looking at the comments below you also need a MUCH better education system. FYI 99% of the time immigration is great for the economy, which is why the US has been wholesale accepting immigrants for a very long time.
You're getting off track there.
You also need a democratically responsive government. If the technocrats say "99% of the time immigration is great for the economy" and the people say "we don't want it, less immigration, please," what do you do? If you want a Trump, you say "shut up people, the technocrats say you're wrong, and you're going to get what they recommend good and hard." If you want to avoid a Trump in the future, you say, "OK, we'll tighten the border and reduce immigration quotas."
I don't care how smart or correct you are: if you can't make your case to the people and get your policy widespread popular support, it shouldn't be implemented in a democracy, end of story.
A lot of western societies are aging. If you don’t import immigrants, you’re on a timer. The economy slows, quality of life drops, and people elect the far right anyway. It’s happening to Japan right now. I’d set up the safety nets and hope enough people will appreciate the better cost of living and reelect sane politicians.
Of course there are no guarantees. People hated Obamacare and punished democrats so hard they lost the most seats since Eisenhower.
> If the technocrats say "99% of the time immigration is great for the economy" and the people say "we don't want it, less immigration, please," what do you do?
Do less immigration where people feel it, invest into economic education of the general populace.
4 replies →
laws need to be enforced. that's it. 90% of trump horror goes away with just that simple thing
What happened to enforcing the law on those who assaulted the Capitol?
3 replies →
Sure, but how do the laws get enforced when law enforcement itself has gone rogue? State governors can't deploy their branches of the National Guard to restore Constitutional law and order without risking that the corrupt federal executive will end up taking control of those as well.
2 replies →
It's mostly the same party, politicians, and cheerleaders who have been dismantling those safety nets, while supporting offshoring and massive handouts to the rich (via the asset bubble). The economic issues driving the destructionist anger are themselves the results of primarily Republican policies becoming un-ignoreable. But rather than any sort of self reflection they're just turning the blame to new scapegoats.
This has effectively been a death spiral for the past several decades - blame the government for incompetence while preventing it from doing anything. For example a major reason that so much power accrued to executive agencies in the first place is the trend of Congressional gridlock kicked off by Newt Gingrich.
As a libertarian I have plenty of criticism of the Democratic party as well, but they're not the ones currently wholesale destroying our Constitution.
As a leftist, i can tell you that any kind of unchecked capitalism or inequality threatens democracies and their constitutions in the long run.
The contradiction of private vs public interests surfaces when growth/ROI demands become harder to achieve. Marx predicted it as diminishing profit rates [0]. The decades of lowering taxes for rich individuals and corporations led to the present budget pressure on institutions, civic decay and agitated uninformed voters. This happens in all capitalistic democracies and we hear the same songs everywhere, about more austerity with a xenophobic background.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit...
1 reply →
[flagged]
As far as I can tell, there's been "mass immigration" since before there was an "America". Colonial settlers in the 17th century, along with Africans taken against their will. Assorted European immigrants in the 18th, along with Asian laborers and Mexicans taken against their will. So on and so forth. There have always been "immigrants". The US and all the other countries in the Americas are immigrant nations.
1 reply →
Welfare state and loose illegal immigration enforcement are at odds policies. Remember in US illegal immigrants can still get WIC and public schooling and their reward for popping out a child is the child now has citizenship and the benefits of such-- those European countries you mention don't normally offer unrestricted jus soli citizenship.
It's 'safety net' itself that helps fuel the immigration rage and delivers people into the hands of the right-wing.
post on https://icemap.app anonymously
[flagged]
[flagged]
6 replies →
If you work for L3Harris, TechOps Specialty Vehicles (TOSV), Clearview AI, Paragon Solutions, AE Industrial, RedLattice, Magnet Forensics, Grayshift, Penlink, Flock Safety, Ring, LexisNexis, or Palantir, you are a fascist.
You may also enjoy this in-depth video about other tech companies that profit from death
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvsR9ojQ66E
Please list the companies! I’m keeping it in a file and making sure I am not connected to any of them.
[flagged]
[flagged]
[flagged]
How many times do you believe immigration agents showed up door to door with riot gear and rifles back then? When it was caught on camera during the Clinton administration it was one of the most polarizing images of his presidency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli%C3%A1n_Gonz%C3%A1lez
That one was controversial not because it was the deportation of an illegal alien rather there were custody issues (abduction accusations) as well as the complication of persecution in the home country —in other words there were multiple issues complicating the deportation. Was he a political prisoner, was he abducted to the US?
2 replies →
You might not be aware of it. It was there though. I had friends going to support families in detention in San Antonio in 2010/11.
Consider that it might be possible you're the one who is actually ignoring stuff based on a political position? And that rather than ignoring it on a Dem/GOP line, the line is between "normal, real adult electoral politics" and all the folks actually doing work to oppose these evil things directly.
A lot of my Democrat-voting friend easily forget Standing Rock or Furguson, but I doubt the people who were there do. By the same token, those same things have oft been forgotten or dismissed by the GOP-identifying friends of mine.
The problem is once you start opening a history book (that's not, say, published for teaching children in Texas) it gets really hard to thing to say "the law is static and started 15 years ago" or even "it's a law so it has ethical weight", and those things are hard to track for most folks and the implications are almost traumatic.
I get that your question is real and a struggle, because that's how it is for many folks in my life, well-intentioned and smart folks who were raised in a system that didn't seem like a problem to them because it fit them well enough, or they were so circumcised by it at an early age that they don't even notice what they've been cut away from.
But for a lot of us, the fact that a bunch of yall got together and decided to vote on who to kick out of the places where we live doesn't hae a lot of moral ethical weight.
Consider that one reason half the folks in the us don't vote is because we know that neither side is going to do anything resembling a good outcome and signing our names to things we don't agree with isn't just a lie but makes us complicit in our own expolitation.
And as yall have gotten ever more violent in practicng yalls "democratically produced" decision, those of us who have, like, an actual moral position are moving ever close to emulating John Brown.
That's easy. In the same place all the murdering from ICE agents during Obama era was.
So before the death of the protester everyone was honky dori with the deportations? It’s understood ~60-ish percent of the pop want all aliens deported not only criminal aliens, but there is a large minority that only want criminal aliens deported and a much smaller militant minority that don’t want any illegal aliens deported regardless of severity of crimes committed.
18 replies →
But by the same token - the obstruction of federal agents who are carrying out their lawful mandate was also in that same place.
True, the implementation was messed up. Those unlawful deportation cases should have been the ones to protest. Not demonizing all of ICE or flying Mexican flags.
5 replies →
Okay let's say it is murder (regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges)
What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop?
What drives someone to run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle?
It's like I can understand why someone is a sports fan, despite not following sports myself. I can fully understand, although I don't support, why someone would join the Taliban or Tren De Aragua or whatever other group. I can understand those things. But I still struggle to understand the above.
39 replies →
I predict that no matter what people say here you will still struggle to understand.
where were the murders of civilians lawfully protesting?
This is very clearly a loaded question and not a good faith one. You are using the format of a question to express a rhetorical position. You can't just tack on "this is an honest question".
Your premise is incorrect. ICE's conduct is illegal, they are executing people in the streets and deporting US citizens. This is against the law. The majority of US citizens did not vote for Trumpin in 2024, and federal elections do not explicitly involve a vote on policy.
Further, people who are 30 now were 15 in 2010.
How often did ICE violate the 4th Amendment under Obama? How many court orders did they ignore? How many people were deported without due process?
Obama actually pioneered non-judicial deportations. Under his administration, 75% of removals took place without the established immigration hearing process.
Many (most?) ICE deportations taking place today are after "due process" "judicial" hearings, that is, a final order of removal being issued by an immigration "judge." This is generally ignored by news reporting.
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/speed-over-fairn...
The news does not contextualize what is going on. Indeed, you can safely strike the word "unprecendented" from almost all journalism. But it's not only a problem with this story, but most stories. Selective outrage is applied based on the cause and enemy du jour. You are honestly better off not watching the news unless you are willing to do extensive deep dives on a topic, because regardless of your party affiliation or personal feelings or what outlet you subscribe to you are being fed a line of propagandistic BS.
9 replies →
I personally think that mass deportation is a foolish policy. I also accept that it can be done legally. However, the current actions clearly exceed legal boundaries.
1. ICE claims the power to enter homes with out a warrant. And has done so: https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2026/01/judge-orders-release-....
2. ICE / DHS are shooting protesters. This is not a legal response to a protest.
3. ICE is ignoring court orders at an unbelievable rate: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mnd.230...
4. The administration is openly slandering citizens - claiming they are terrorists without evidence.
5. ICE is conducting mass surveillance of citizens and non-citizens alike.
There are certainly liberals who broadly oppose deportation and who would protest any mass deportation project. However, there, I believe, a lot of us who would grudgingly accept as foolish-but-legal a deportation program that followed the law. What is broadly - across all political stripes - despised is this despotic overreach. And that's what driving people into the streets.
I wasn't outraged until ICE kidnapped two US citizens at gunpoint from their jobs at target, refused to verify citizenship, dragged them away in unmarked vans, beat the shit out of them and dumped them in the snow.
Obama deported criminals only and mostly at the border.
AFAIU, ICE is also deporting mostly criminals, no?
20 replies →