Comment by torginus
19 hours ago
I feel like there's some credibility to 'this time it's different'
The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon - the US dollar is the world's main reserve currency, the US enforces international order and trade rules via its military strength, it dominates technology and culture through 'US defaultism'.
I dont think AI even factors in to this.
The US economy is priced for global reach - if it manages to lose that through a combination of credible competitors, and loss of goodwill - it's going to be in heaps of trouble.
The looming US debt is also a great question - a lot of economists have argued that since most US debt is good. It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
All said, I think if the US continues down the political path it currently seems to be pursuing, 'this time it's different' actually will be.
>The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
no it doesn't
> It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
Strangely enough, this is exactly the opposite of how it works. The dollars abroad tend to stay abroad, as either a more stable alternative to local currencies, or a reserve currency. Likewise, treasuries held abroad tend to stay there as reserves. This is how the US is able to run both a huge debt, and a huge trade deficit. If the dollars were being repatriated, the trade deficit would close, and the influx of money would cause hotter inflation. Same with treasuries, yields would spike as demand fell.
There are lots of second order effects there, good and bad, but, basically, those dollars not coming home has funded America for quite some time.
De-dollarisation is happening, but slowly. China has decreased it's US treasury holdings by about 7% a year over the last five years [1].
It won't happen quickly because it makes no financial sense to dump huge amounts of dollars on the market.
[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/foreign-treasury-...
> Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
Right now this is much more of a maybe, possibly, eventually, over a long enough time horizon.
As of the end of 2025, USD still made up 57% of foreign reserves vs 20% for the Euro and 3% for the Chinese renminbi. Nearly all commodities are still priced in USD and about 50% of trade invoicing is done in dollars, closer to 60% if you exclude the Eurozone. USD also makes up about 60% of SWIFT transactions.
So the demand is still there today and de-dollarization is not really a thing in aggregate as of January 2026, despite all of the events of the past year or so.
So if this time is different, I’m not seeing it yet.
The international "rules-based order" is a good idea when most nations play by the rules most of the time, and when the most powerful at least pretend to follow the same rules as everyone else.
A world order based on rules makes it possible to live at a much higher level of abstraction.
Abstractions like rule of law, democracy, government currencies and stock exchanges are intangible and imaginary. They're mostly just figments of collective belief. But these wispy and unreal ideas that everyone believes in make it possible for most people to live longer, healthier and less difficult lives.
The "rules-based order" was always partly mythical, but as long as everyone kept pretending, it mostly continued to function.
But when we devolve from the rules-based order to the old order of pure power and might-makes-right, kings and dictators, when there's no more collective belief that the rules apply to the rich and powerful, then the tower of abstractions collapses, and we're back to the cold, hard, brutal and difficult real world.
People will find out that life in the real world is a lot poorer and more miserable than life at the top of the tower of abstractions, even if your brokerage account appears to double.
I generally agree with your comment except the 'back to the real world' part. This is just the difference between a world with the gains that cooperation give verses a world with just the maximized minimum return that distrust leads to. A trusting world is the real world we have seen for decades. It is a real world we can choose to keep pushing for.
Neither is 'real'. The power of might depends on belief just as much as the power of rules. You need a whole lot of compliance, even when forced by fear and terror, to just keep up a police state. The belief consists of where people think other people assign authority to, at large. But that can be just as brittle as a meme stock if the time is right.
Social reality is always constructed. No single construction is more real than any other.
The rules based order is mostly a fabrication of recent history. Perhaps between the fall of the Soviet Union, China becoming more open, and the general peace and prosperity it seemed like it existed.
Politics between countries has always been around interests. Countries have no interest in giving up their sovereignty. They may pretend to respect these "rules" when it suits them and then ignore them when it doesn't. Everyone is focused on how "bad" the US is but a) the US has always more or less done whatever it wants b) Russia and China (and many others) have never even pretended to play or accept these "rules".
Canada's Carney whines about "international order" when just a few years ago China simply abducted Canadians in response to the supposed "orderly" arrest of the Huawei CFO to be extradited to the US. So Canada basically abducts the CFO of a major Chinese company and China abducts Canadians in retaliation and that's a rules based order to who exactly? And we can put together an endless list of an endless number of countries. So when exactly was there ever a rules based order except as a tool for countries to bully each other and for the poorer dictator led countries to try and get a seat at the table because they can vote in the UN general assembly.
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> Abstractions like rule of law, democracy, government currencies and stock exchanges are intangible and imaginary. They're mostly just figments of collective belief.
> But when we devolve from the rules-based order to the old order of pure power and might-makes-right, kings and dictators, when there's no more collective belief that the rules apply to the rich and powerful, then the tower of abstractions collapses, and we're back to the cold, hard, brutal and difficult real world.
Many have absorbed and believe the argument of the might-makes-right crowd that their vision is 'real' and their enemies' vision is 'imaginary'. Unless people believe in what they seek, they are lost.
There's nothing imaginary about it; that theory is paper thin and doesn't survive simple examination. Obviously, humans are social animals that live in groups, have powerful intellects, and therefore have tremendous ability to cooperate and work together toward greater good; we've done it many, many times. Freedom and democracy have appealed powerfully to people worldwide, in a tremendously wide variety of cultures. That model was created by people who had experienced WWI and WWII; they knew more of your 'reality' than probably you or I ever will, and with that knowledge and experience they created this order.
And the greater good long predates that; religions and similar ethical codes based on the greater good long predate modern democracy and the rules-based order. Rules-based orders predate it. The Gospels in the New Testament are an easy, very familiar example, from 2,000 years ago (and a significant basis of modern freedom and democracy). Similar is true for abstractions like law, government, justice, etc.
We all are biologically the same, essentially, as the best of humanity and the worst - both are in all of us. It's our choice, our moral choice, what we do. That is also a fundamental that long predates the post-war order, democracy, the Englightenment, etc. Inevitability is a cheap tactic long used by those whose ideas are undesireable and don't withstand scrutiny.
Our choice is easier than those who survived WWII, and their predecessors. Our ancestors gave us the tools, the institutions, etc. They had to build them from nothing for a skeptical world.
The US has played by different rules, might makes right, in the western hemisphere for a long time.
Screwing around with Greenland shit, on the other hand, seems riskier.
> So if this time is different, I’m not seeing it yet
Compare those numbers to 5 years ago. Remember, this is the timescale of a country, not a beagle. America has run on the strength of the dollar for decades, and the symptoms of that collapsing are likely to play out over decades.
>demand is still there today
Not all demand the same. There are broadly 2 types of USD buyers
1. price insensitive: sovereign banks, who buys for liquidity/storage
2. price sensitive: hedge funds, private buyer who buys returns
Type 1 buyers are bailing out of treasury. Type 1 are marginal buyers, the close auction regardless or rate, this keeps rates low -> debt servicing low. They artificially depress yield to non market rates, without them rate go up because you have more price sensitive buyers who buy for returns. This increases borrowing costs, hence US debt repayment rising massively.
Type 1 buyers, i.e. US allies (and historically even adversaries) soaked up treasuries are now de-dollarizing / buying gold in lieu of _more_ USD. Type 1s underpin the "privilege" part of exorbitant privilege. The more they de-dollarize the more dollars become exorbitant, aka debt like everyone else. Type1, sovereign held 60% of USD to 40% in last 5 years. This large part of why interest tripled and debt servicing went from 350B to 1T in 5 years. Type1s exit to 20% in another 5 years and maybe interest goes to 5%, debt servicing 2T+. It's the difference between 10%/20%/30% debt servicing as % of federal revenue.
This not to mention USD reserve ticking down at 1% per year means meaningful changes in our lifetimes, and velocity may increase with developments like Saudi no longer locking oil to dollar. Less USD as % of global reserve = more network effects of alternate payment = increased potential velocity of USD reserve drop. This doesn't mean other currencies pickup all slack, i.e. central banks seem to be going in gold / commodities with no counter party risk for new storage. The net result is USD will still be around, in large volumes, but the cost/debt to sustain the system will be "normalized" while US budget is historically is built around USD debt being privileged. AKA difference between borrowing money from family vs payday loans.
>Nearly all commodities are still priced in USD
PRICED as in benchmarked in USD, but =/= USD is being spent to settle them. There's a fuckload of commodities where PRC alone buys 30/40/50%+ of global production, and while quoted in USD, increasingly settled in rmb/CIPS, bilateral currencies, BRI infra or other swaps mechanisms that bypasses USD. This one of the largest source of dedollarization - PRC went from single digit % to plurality of cross-border settlements in RMB/non USD. Though this is just very recent leading indicator that USD is functionally circumventable.
There is another type of demand that I rarely see mentioned. Not only does the United States owe trillions of US dollars, other nations do, as well. They hold many trillions worth of loans denominated in US dollars. They must be repaid in US dollars and not in any other currency.
And not just to the United States but to other nations, as well. South Africa owes US dollars to Australia, Australia owes US dollars to Brazil, Brazil owes US dollars to Argentina, etc.
These nations are hungry for every dollar we print. Even if every trading partner dropped the dollar for trade tomorrow, and if everyone who owned Treasuries all sold them at once, there would still be demand for US dollars to repay their loans.
The IMF made them an offer they couldn’t refuse, and spun a sticky web of a debt trap as a result.
Three minute video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_SaG9HVXMQg&pp=ygUQZG9sbGFyIG1...
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The end of 2026 was remarkably different to the world of today, and it that's logical it is - checks calendar - already 31 days ago. Now imagine another year of this.
> The end of 2026
Seems you didn't check you calendar hard enough ;)
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Check that calendar again.
That number has been dropping by a percent every year for USD over the last 10 years. It used to be 65% USD in 2015
Sure, and in 1992 it was 46%, and in 2000 it was 71% and in 2013 it was 61%.
USD foreign exchange reserves have definitely declined from their peak, but by “declined” we’re talking about going from “overwhelmingly dominant” to “merely dominant” to potentially in a few years “equal to every other foreign currency reserve in the world combined”, and maybe USD foreign exchange reserves will decline even further beyond that point.
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The dollar is going down in value right now. Thats the plan. It makes foreign goods more expensive and exports more affordable to other countries. Meanwhile it should have less inflationary pressure on domestically produced stuff like housing.
I dont know if this is going to work or collapse. If it does work IMO they still need to reduce the debt - current actions are because we are backed into a corner, so that needs to be corrected.
There is no plan. There is just chaos.
It also increases profits for multi-national US companies since they get paid in other currencies, which they then convert to dollars locally. Basically, they have favorable FX tailwinds.
The "Mar a Lago Accord" plan [1], for those curious. The US debt is one major rationale behind the strategy.
It's a dangerous plan that relies on keeping allies happy and re-establishing hegemony via a Plaza Accords / Bretton Woods 2.0 type system.
It's not going to work if you simultaneously piss all of the allies off.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts5wJ6OfzA by Money & Macro, which is a fantastic economics YouTube channel. Patrick Boyle has also spoken about this in pieces.
Eh, it's not a plan, it's make believe.
It's a flimsy back-filled rationale thrown on top the mercurial (and often sadistic) whims of an American Caligula, so the elite enablers can pretend there's something rational - or even good - about the chaos and destruction they are supporting.
There isn't. It's just chaos and destruction.
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This time is not different in the sense that at some point crazy valuations get a reality check. But that's not "the crash of the US economy", that's a stock market crash, and those will happen (tell me when - I'd also like to know) and they also tend to crash all around the world.
The US economy has had ups and downs and I'm sure will still have but despite the wishful thinking of Marxists it's still the least worst economy around in perhaps the least worst country. It still attracts talent and money. It still leads in many areas. It's still very productive. There are huge ecosystems and a cultural base. It's still the world's largest economy. Where will the balance tilt? China? India?
Anyways, be careful of what you wish for, if the power shifts to China we are going to have a very different world, and not in a good way. I don't think it's even in China's interest to see a large decline of the US, after all they're a big customer.
> I don't think it's even in China's interest to see a large decline of the US, after all they're a big customer.
Yeah aren’t they just Leninist but using us as a signal of what to make? I thought rough shape of the scheme was you get to build a factory using free loans in bullshit money that buys rice and apartments but can’t leave the country, then use that to get real money you can take elsewhere by making shit Americans want to buy. You can’t trade the bullshit money for real money without the factory step.
This is one thing I've heard repeated - that USD needs to be spent in America - seems like other countries could just transact with it directly.
They can and they do; that's called dollarization.
It's worth observing that dollars that are never supposed to return to the US don't have the same anti-counterfeiting pressure that dollars spent in the US do. I don't know how much of a market there is in counterfeiting USD for dollarized economies.
> The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
Citation needed? This feels like a retcon. Remember that the U.S. became the biggest economy in the world in 1890: https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&.... That was half a century before World War II and the military empire that followed.
The trillion dollars a year pumped into the military support the stock prices of quite a few highly-valued companies. A sudden collapse of hegemony would be bad for "the market", but that seems unlikely unless WW3 actually kicks off instead of a few more rounds of opportunistic snatching and bullying by the big countries, and in that case few people would care about the stock market.
> I dont think AI even factors in to this.
I think another way to look at the expansion of the capitalist economy is the onboarding of people into entry day jobs and transitions of economies upward..
AI may have relatively little to do with the US' tantrums yet I think it has a lot to do with the end of expansion and a fast contraction of the availability of top jobs as the last economies enter the middle of the funnel can't be good.
> 'this time it's different'
I remember reading this a lot in 2000-2001 and 2007-2008
That said, overall I sort of agree with your assessment except for having any optimism that the US changes course.
The current looming problems with the US economy are almost entirely unforced errors of the Trump administration (they could have done basically nothing and taken credit for the Biden soft landing and economic growth) but they aren't going to course correct.
Trump has no ability to admit mistakes even to himself and he's now surrounded by lots of people who stand to enrich themselves from the chaos even as the average American is harmed greatly.
Still, he'll be gone one day and I am going to be all in on that day. It'll all be hockey-sticks from that moment on.
How much of America’s growth since the 40s is attributable to its hegemony, stability, and the emergence of USD as the reserve currency of the world? And where other developed, stable nations started dropping in population, the US continued growing thanks to immigration and its center as a research Mecca.
All of those are being unwound as we speak, and it’ll take decades to prove to the world that any trade policy and government agreements may be kept longer than 4 years.
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He'll be gone. The trust in the US won't come back. If your constitution and political system allow such a moron to wreak so much havoc in such a little time, why would we ever trust you again?
Trump, yes. The millions of people that voted for him multiple times despite no shortage of reports and credible allegations that he was a scumbag... Will not.
Trump isn't the problem, he's a symptom.
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Its standard Republican playbook.
Get in power, enrich themselves, kick the can down the road to Democrats, then blame the Democrats for poor economy.
This is why ironically Trump cancelling elections and installing himself as a 3d term president would actually be good. People need to see that no matter how bad they think things were under Democrats, it can get much much worse. Say goodbye to your house value and 401k plans for retirement, you gonna be a wage slave well into your 60s, but hey, at least we fixed "wokeness"
Simple solution; raise taxes. Been saying that will be the outcome eventually as the olds continue to die and the youth feel zero obligation to senile pants shitters and corpses. GenZ fucking hates Boomers and a whole lot of GenX (that insurance CEO? GenX. Epipen price hiking CEO? GenX. Whole lot of tech CEOs of note? Yup, GenX) Generations beyond Z will never experience Boomers and 1900s American life. They won't care about an arbitrary line in the sand. GenX ain't getting any younger, won't have Boomer support.
A reasonable scenario right now; rest of the world intentionally collaborates to isolate US, destabilize US, act as a forcing function for US to reassert internal control by swiftly deflating buying power of useless rich[1]. The world is sick of US CEOs who do little but jiggle values in spreadsheets. Sundar and many others have said CEOs are likely a very easy job to automate away; useless pageantry. There is rapidly growing domestic and overseas will to depose those non-contributors.
Fastest way to stem the collapse of reality for 10s of millions of Americans with a lot of guns too.
[1] Americans buying power has been deflated by 300% since 1980... I am sure it is purely coincidence Boomers have run the world for most of it.
"Soak the rich" laws were passed around a hundred years ago in the US in response to obscene wealth; worked out pretty well for a long time before they got rolled back and we got a new round of oligarchs.
Trump famously bankrupted 3 casinos. The US economy will be the 4th.
He bankrupted 4 casinos. 2 in one swoop.
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