Comment by nine_k
17 days ago
$1k per day, 50 work weeks, 5 day a week → $250k a year. That is, to be worth it, the AI should work as well as an engineer that costs a company $250k. Between taxes, social security, and cost of office space, that engineer would be paid, say, $170-180k a year, like an average-level senior software engineer in the US.
This is not an outrageous amount of money, if the productivity is there. More likely the AI would work like two $90k junior engineers, but without a need to pay for a vacation, office space, social security, etc. If the productivity ends up higher than this, it's pure profit; I suppose this is their bet.
The human engineer would be like a tech lead guiding a tea of juniors, only designing plans and checking results above the level of code proper, but for exceptional cases, like when a human engineer would look at the assembly code a compiler has produced.
This does sound exaggeratedly optimistic now, but does not sound crazy.
It’s a $90k engineer that sometimes acts like a vandal, who never has thoughts like “this seems to be a bad way to go. Let me ask the boss” or “you know, I was thinking. Shouldn’t we try to extract this code into a reusable component?” The worst developers I’ve worked with have better instincts for what’s valuable. I wish it would stop with “the simplest way to resolve this is X little shortcut” -> boom.
It basically stumbles around generating tokens within the bounds (usually) of your prompt, and rarely stops to think. Goal is token generation, baby. Not careful evaluation. I have to keep forcing it to stop creating magic inline strings and rather use constants or config, even though those instructions are all over my Claude.md and I’m using the top model. It loves to take shortcuts that save GPU but cost me time and money to wrestle back to rational. “These issues weren’t created by me in this chat right now so I’ll ignore them and ship it.” No, fix all the bugs. That’s the job.
Still, I love it. I can hand code the bits I want to, let it fly with the bits I don’t. I can try something new in a separate CLI tab while others are spinning. Cost to experiment drops massively.
Claude code has those "thoughts" you say it never will. In plan mode, it isn't uncommon that it'll ask you: do you want to do this the quick and simple way, or would you prefer to "extract this code into a reusable component". It also will back out and say "Actually, this is getting messy, 'boss' what do you think?"
I could just be lucky that I work in a field with a thorough specification and numerous reference implementations.
I agree that Claude does this stuff. I also think the Chinese menus of options it provides are weak in their imagination, which means that for thoroughly specified problem spaces with reference implementations you're in good shape, but if you want to come up with a novel system, experience is required, otherwise you will end up in design hell. I think the danger is in juniors thinking the Chinese menu of options provided are "good" options in the first place. Simply because they are coherent does not mean they are good, and the combinations of "a little of this, a little of that" game of tradeoffs during design is lost.
This has happened to me too. Claude has stopped and said on occasions "this is a big refactor, and will affect UI as well. Do you want me to do it?"
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> sometimes acts like a vandal
I see you don't have experience working with a large number of real life humans.
$250k a year, for now. What's to stop anthropic for doubling the price if your entire business depends on it? What are you gonna do, close shops?
Yeah this is just trading largely known & controllable labour management risks for some fun new unknown software ones.
You can negotiate with your human engineers for comp, you may not be able to negotaiate with as much power against Anthropic etc (or stop them if they start to change their services for the worse).
By then perhaps it will be possible to continue with local LLMs
Don't hold your breath. Hardware, memory, disks, have been stalling for a good while.
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If this is successful supply shock will kick in (because of energy/GPU constraints) and we could easily see a 2-4x price increase maybe more if the market will accept it. That's before taking into account current VC subsidies.
What’s to stop them? Competition.
From whom? OpenAI and Google? Who else has the sort of resources to train and run SOTA models at scale?
You just reduced the supply of engineers from millions to just three. If you think it was expensive before ...
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Have they stopped making a loss yet? They'll all need to raise prices or they'll all go out of business, and now it's a game of chicken.
Competition doesn’t magically waive costs, the investors expectations of return, neither debt serving obligations.
And how has that worked out for us in any other software category?
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that worked real well for cloud computing
aws and gcp's margins are legendarily poor
oh, wait
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I mean… What does your shop even do? Write software? Why? The whole premise is that it’s now easily cloned.
>> $170-180k a year, like an average-level senior software engineer in the US.
I hear things like this all the time, but outside of a few major centers it's just not the norm. And no companies are spending anything like $1k / month on remote work environments.
I mean, it's at best an average-level senior engineer salary, not some exorbitant L6 Googler salary.
Median salary for a software engineer in the US is ~$133k:
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
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Define “senior engineer” though..
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I think that is easy to understand for a lot of people but I will spell it out.
This looks like AI companies marketing that is something in line 1+1 or buy 3 for 2.
Money you don’t spend on tokens are the only saved money, period.
With employees you have to pay them anyway you can’t just say „these requirements make no sense, park for two days until I get them right”.
You would have to be damn sure of that you are doing the right thing to burn $1k a day on tokens.
With humans I can see many reasons why would you pay anyway and it is on you that you should provide sensible requirements to be built and make use of employees time.
OK, but who is saying that to the llm? Another llm?
We got feedback in this thread from someone who supposedly knows rust about common anti patterns and someone from the company came back with 'yeah that's a problem, we'll have agents fix it.'[0].
Agents are obviously still too stupid to have the meta cognition needed for deciding when to refactor, even at $1,000 per day per person. So we still need the buts in seats. So we're back at the idea of centaurs. Then you have to make the case that paying an AI more than a programmer is worth it.[1]
[0] which has been my exact experience with multi-agent code bases I've burned money on.
[1] which in my experience isn't when you know how to edit text and send API requests from your text editor.
That nobody wants to actually do it is already a problem, but some basically true thing is that somebody has to pay those $90k junior engineers for a couple years to turn them into senior engineers.
The seem to be plenty of people willing to pay the AI do that junior engineer level work, so wouldn’t it make sense to defect and just wait until it has gained enough experience to do the senior engineer work?
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Assuming current prices are heavily subsidised (VC money) and there is a supply shock (because we don't have enough GPUs/energy). If that leads to double the price that means 500k/year, and if we see a 4x price increase that's 1000k/year.
Suddenly, it starts to look precarious. That would be my concern anyway.
> 50 work weeks
What dystopia is this?
I took it as a napkin rounding of 365/7 because that’s the floor you pay an employee regardless of vacation time (in places like my country you’d add an extra month plus the prorated amount based on how many vacation days the employee has), so, not that people work 50 weeks per year, it’s just a reasonable approximation of what the cost the hiring company.
This is a simplification to make the calculation more straightforward. But a typical US workplace honors about 11 to 13 federal holidays. I assume that an AI does not need a vacation, but can't work 2 days straight autonomously when its human handlers are enjoying a weekend.
There are no human handlers. From the opening paragraph (emphasis mine):
> We built a Software Factory: non-interactive development where specs + scenarios drive agents that write code, run harnesses, and converge without human review.
[Edit] I don't know why I'm being downvoted for quoting the linked article. I didn't say it was a good idea.
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Looks like standard USA?
It doesn't say 1k per day. Not saying I agree with the statement per se, but it's a much weaker statement than that.
"If you haven't spent at least $1,000 on tokens today per human engineer, your software factory has room for improvement" - how exactly is that a weaker statement?
My read of it was "by today", aka cumulative. But you're right that it can also be read as "just today". The latter is an absurdly strong statement, I agree.
I would love to see setups where $1000/day is productive right now.
I am one of the most pro vibe-coding^H^H^H^H engineering people I know, and i am like "one claude code max $200/mo and one codex $200/mo will keep you super stressed out to keep them busy" (at least before the new generation of models I would hit limits on one but never both - my human inefficiency in tech-leading these AIs was the limit)
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It sounds exaggeratedly crazy.
why stop at 5 days a week?