Comment by D-Machine
19 days ago
Let's be more precise: LLMs have to model the world from an intermediate tokenized representation of the text on the internet. Most of this text is natural language, but to allow for e.g. code and math, let's say "tokens" to keep it generic, even though in practice, tokens mostly tokenize natural language.
LLMs can only model tokens, and tokens are produced by humans trying to model the world. Tokenized models are NOT the only kinds of models humans can produce (we can have visual, kinaesthetic, tactile, gustatory, and all sorts of sensory, non-linguistic models of the world).
LLMs are trained on tokenizations of text, and most of that text is humans attempting to translate their various models of the world into tokenized form. I.e. humans make tokenized models of their actual models (which are still just messy models of the world), and this is what LLMs are trained on.
So, do "LLMS model the world with language"? Well, they are constrained in that they can only model the world that is already modeled by language (generally: tokenized). So the "with" here is vague. But patterns encoded in the hidden state are still patterns of tokens.
Humans can have models that are much more complicated than patterns of tokens. Non-LLM models (e.g. models connected to sensors, such as those in self-driving vehicles, and VLMs) can use more than simple linguistic tokens to model the world, but LLMs are deeply constrained relative to humans, in this very specific sense.
I don't get the importance of the distinction really. Don't LLMs and Large non-language Models fundamentally work kind of similarly underneath? And use similar kinds of hardware?
But I know very little about this.
you are correct the token representation gets abstracted away very quickly and is then identical for textual or image models. It's the so-called latent space and people who focus on next token prediction completely missed the point that all the interesting thinking takes place in abstract world model space.
> you are correct the token representation gets abstracted away very quickly and is then identical for textual or image models.
This is mostly incorrect, unless you mean "they both become tensor / vector representations (embeddings)". But these vector representations are not comparable.
E.g. if you have a VLM with a frozen dual-backbone architecture (say, a vision transformer encoder trained on images, and an LLM encoder backbone pre-trained in the usual LLM way), then even if, for example, you design this architecture so the embedding vectors produced by each encoder have the same shape, to be combined via another component, e.g. some unified transformer, it will not be the case that e.g. the cosine similarity between an image embedding and a text embedding is a meaningful quantity (it will just be random nonsense). The representations from each backbone are not identical, and the semantic structure of each space is almost certainly very different.
They do not model the world.
They present a statistical model of an existing corpus of text.
If this existing corpus includes useful information it can regurgitate that.
It cannot, however, synthesize new facts by combining information from this corpus.
The strongest thing you could feasibly claim is that the corpus itself models the world, and that the LLM is a surrogate for that model. But this is not true either. The corpus of human produced text is messy, containing mistakes, contradictions, and propaganda; it has to be interpreted by someone with an actual world model (a human) in order for it to be applied to any scrnario; your typical corpus is also biased towards internet discussions, the english language, and western prejudices.
If we focus on base models and ignore the tuning steps after that, then LLMs are "just" a token predictor. But we know that pure statistical models aren't very good at this. After all we tried for decades to get Markov chains to generate text, and it always became a mess after a couple of words. If you tried to come up with the best way to actually predict the next token, a world model seems like an incredibly strong component. If you know what the sentence so far means, and how it relates to the world, human perception of the world and human knowledge, that makes guessing the next word/token much more reliable than just looking at statistical distributions.
The bet OpenAI has made is that if this is the optimal final form, then given enough data and training, gradient descent will eventually build it. And I don't think that's entirely unreasonable, even if we haven't quite reached that point yet. The issues are more in how language is an imperfect description of the world. LLMs seems to be able to navigate the mistakes, contradictions and propaganda with some success, but fail at things like spatial awareness. That's why OpenAI is pushing image models and 3d world models, despite making very little money from them: they are working towards LLMs with more complete world models unchained by language
I'm not sure if they are on the right track, but from a theoretical point I don't see an inherent fault
There's plenty of faults in this idea.
First, the subjectivity of language.
1) People only speak or write down information that needs to be added to a base "world model" that a listener or receiver already has. This context is extremely important to any form of communication and is entirely missing when you train a pure language model. The subjective experience required to parse the text is missing.
2) When people produce text, there is always a motive to do so which influences the contents of the text. This subjective information component of producing the text is interpreted no different from any "world model" information.
A world model should be as objective as possible. Using language, the most subjective form of information is a bad fit.
The other issue in this argument is that you're inverting the implication. You say an accurate world model will produce the best word model, but then suddenly this is used to imply that any good word model is a useful world model. This does not compute.
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> It cannot, however, synthesize new facts by combining information from this corpus.
That would be like saying studying mathematics can't lead to someone discovering new things in mathematics.
Nothing would ever be "novel" if studying the existing knowledge could not lead to novel solutions.
GPT 5.2 Thinking is solving Erdős Problems that had no prior solution - with a proof.
The Erdos problem was solved by interacting with a formal proof tool, and the problem was trivial. I also don't recall if this was the problem someone had already solved prior but not reported, but that does not matter.
The point is that the LLM did not model maths to do this, made calls to a formal proof tool that did model maths, and was essentially working as the step function to a search algorithm, iterating until it found the zero in the function.
That's clever use of the LLM as a component in a search algorithm, but the secret sauce here is not the LLM but the middleware that operated both the LLM and the formal proof tool.
That middleware was the search tool that a human used to find the solution.
This is not the same as a synthesis of information from the corpus of text.
Are we sure? Why can't the LLM use tools, run experiments, and create new facts like humans?
Then the LLM is not actually modelling the world, but using other tools that do.
The LLM is not the main component in such a system.
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they do model the world. Watch Noble price winner Hinton or let's admit that this is more of a religious question then the technical.
They model the part of the world that (linguistic models of the world posted on the internet) try to model. But what is posted on the internet is not IRL. So, to be glib: LLMs trained on the internet do not model IRL, they model talking about IRL.
His point is that human language and the written record is a model of the world, so if you train an LLM you're training a model of a model of the world.
That sounds highly technical if you ask me. People complain if you recompress music or images with lossy codecs, but when an LLM does that suddenly it's religious?
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