Comment by freetime2
15 days ago
Looks like a great car. As Marques Brownlee puts it [1], this is Rivian's "Model Y fighter". And I personally find the R2 to be much more appealing than a Model Y in terms of size, shape, and interior.
But we have been misled so many times about EV prices prior to launch, I think it's important to wait until we see what it actually costs for different trim levels before making comparisons to the Model Y. That $45,000 price they are throwing around could very well be for a trim that isn't even available at launch.
And anyway if I were going to buy a new compact crossover today, I'd probably lean more toward the RAV4 PHEV. It's an EV most of the time, I can refill it up with gas during long trips, it's got tactile buttons, and it has carplay.
None of these car reviewers ever take into account build quality and customer issues. Example they all lashihly praised the EX90, but owners struggled for a year with software problems, then found out the LIDAR they paid for is never going to assist their driving and they need a new computer. Same with Rivian, all of today's reviews praise the R2, but ignore the troubles current owners have not just with the car but with getting service too.
Never buy a first year model and then keep an eye on owners forums before you buy.
> None of these car reviewers ever take into account build quality and customer issues.
Because most car reviewers' job is to explain new releases. Most issues arise after time, which reviewers generally don't get. MKBHD has gone into quality issues at times: see for example Cybertruck [1] and Fisker Ocean [2]. In their Q&A videos, the couple that does Motormouth [3] due mention reliability when asked for recommendations.
There are sources for reliability assessments, like J. D. Power and Consumer Reports.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0cs8aIXgkc&t=8m
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWXRk3yaSw
[3] https://www.youtube.com/user/Motormouthcanada/videos
Underrated comment.
Everyone commented on the battery life for my model 3 in winter (which is annoying but not a huge deal). The problems with the bushings, the easily cracked (2500$) roof glass, and the lack of spare parts (not as bad as Rivian) were drowned out.
Love the car, but wouldn't have bought it for the price I paid (used) if I had known.
The R2 looks great but like you said, never buy a first year model.
(Unless it is the Honda 0 Saloon)
Day 1 reviews, the ones that drives sales of any product, are flawed by definition. They take a narrow and superficial view of the product, a snapshot when what you need is a timelapse.
The winter tires that score great on day 1 but put a bit of wear on them and they turn to crap. The motherboard that scores the highest in the benchmarks at launch but later on burns your CPU, or gets a BIOS update that caps the performance, or gets no updates whatsoever. The car that shines at acceleration and feature list but breaks down often and is slow and expensive to fix.
Day 1 reviews certainly have some value but it’s higher for the reviewer than for the potential buyer. By the time the reviewer follows up after battle testing in time, if they even want to risk looking like they got it wrong the first time, the damage was done. And people aren’t that interested in reading about old stuff, those reviews don’t get the views.
i have that rule and the same exception for the 0. it feels like its "cyber" look done actually right with proper design (i dont let other inferior designs steal the word cyber). i would also add any decently good* ev minivan that is actually available to buy in the us.
*vw buzz fails the good test for no one pedal driving and the price for what you get is outta wack. though lots of the 1st gen ones are still sitting on car lots so maybe that could cross the exception barrier if they go for cheaper.
I would love to come in and buy a BYD with the exact same design flaws, but for 1/3 of the price. Sadly protectionism disallows me from doing that
Same here! American-made EVs ask for an incredibly heavy price tag and don’t deliver on the reliability of ICE or Hybrid cars a third of their price. It’s the primary thing stopping me from getting one as my next vehicle.
I’m trying to shop around to replace my wife’s aging crossover and I really can’t find anything more attractive than a Prius or another Kia Soul. If we could get electric cars from the CN market it’d be a no-brainer!
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One of the good things in the UK is seeing how quickly my neighbours swapped out their Tesla's for BYD's.
I'm not in the market at the moment so don't know what the UK protectionism position is on Chinese EV's, but has been interesting to watch how quick it's happening.
I work in design and we're talking to two Chinese EV companies launching in the UK this year, so the wall can't be that high for them.
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I watched one of those Out Of Spec videos on an earlier Rivian and it was full of praise and raving. Then there was a later video where they almost on the side mentioned when it came out of the factory it felt legitimately unsafe to drive on the highway and had already spent days at service including a total powertrain shutdown, essentially a lemon. These things happened already in the time before their first video yet were never mentioned. That entire YouTube review industry is more rotten and bought than the same show on Cable TV ever was..
That was the cyber truck. 4 motor replacements iirc.
I think Consumer Reports does large quality surveys of customers and includes that in their reviews.
Yep. Consumer Reports' "Find a Car" page has sorting options for Overall Score, Road Test Score, Predicted Reliability, and Predicted Owner Satisfaction. I think they're a tremendous pro-consumer non-profit, and that a $39/year membership more than pays for itself by way of better major purchases.
Rivian, by the way, is the lowest-ranked of 26 covered auto manufacturers in terms of predicted reliability, below Ram and Jeep. The top 3 are Toyota, Subaru, and Lexus.
Also Doug Demuro raves about it [1]. Personally I can't stand Marques' reviews. Just inspiring and he looks bored. Doug on the other hand really seems to put some of his soul into his reviews.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl_0087dyM
Doug's format is beyond worn out and tiresome.
He hasn't innovated or improved upon anything in years.
Don't even get me started on his voice...
Right you are Ken, but the format pretty much is his schtick. It’s not that entertaining at all anymore, but it’s also decent to know that a review will probably exist for most cars I’m ever considering.
For me his value remains mainly that he’s tall which I am too, so when he’s in a car I can guess what it’ll be like for me.
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Agreed, re: DeMuro.... I'm long past tired of hearing how "The ____ is the ____!"
I do like Tedward's videos, though. He seems a lot more honestly enthusiastic about it, and definitely has fun with the cars.
If even Doug falls out of favor.. then I don't know anymore. His voice doesn't bother me too much but he sure has a lot of energy just to keep talking. Never stops talking.
what do you think about Mat Watson?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eepauvC5LU
Doug's problem is that he is never critical, he even calls flaws or omissions with the euphemism 'quirks'. It feels like he is too embedded in the automotive ecosystem to the point where he will not even be critical of Stellantis products.
Marques has no problem calling out inferior products.
The RAV4 EV capacity is so small, the electric engine so weak (cuts to gas well before highway speed), and the charge speed so slow, that in practice its a 100% gas car. Only a small number of disciplined owners are going to be able to run it as an EV most of the time, as its actually impractical to do so.
It’s a gas car, with greenwashing.
This is completely false. I own one. It goes up to the low 80s mph before the gas engine kicks in. Acceleration from a stop is sub 6 second 0-60. Hardly weak. Charges from fully empty to full in about 2.5 hours.
Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. I drive 10-12k miles per year, and ignoring extended multi-day vacation road trips once every couple years, I fill up the tank 2-3 times per year.
My experience with my Prius PHEV is the same. I don’t even have a level 2 charger. I just plug it in in the garage overnight, and most days I don’t use any gas.
The only time the ICE turns on before my EV range is up is if I hit the windshield defrost button when it’s cold. That’s presumably to prioritize getting heat out through the vents quickly. I’ve never accelerated fast enough, nor gone fast enough to trigger the ICE engine taking over. It’s straight up an EV for my first ~40 miles every day.
I rented a BYD M9 PHEV minivan while on vacation in Cancun, Mexico and other than the vehicle winning over my family in, like 2 days, the mileage was amazing. 1000km range, of which, 180km was battery (that's 520mi of gas + 100mi battery range).
PHEVs in the US are gimped by poor regulatory incentives - we should be forcing manufacturers to increase overall range + EV range. If this model were sold in the US by a US manufacturer, I bet the ranges would be halved (and still considered good/decent in comparison to existing alternatives).
> Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range.
That sounds like the real issue, vs. EVs. This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas.
(For comparison, our EV6 has about 200-250 mile range, and we charge it about once a week or so, give or take, unless we take a road trip.)
Also, one of the main advantages with EVs is their insane low maintenance, but sounds like PHEVs still have to all the same maintenance issues of ICE vehicles.
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Toyotas hybrid uses gas when you accelerate hard to get that 0-60, it’s a combined system horsepower. Unlike phevs, EREVs are only driven by the electric drive, and the gas system is a series generator, so the EV is fully capable & always doing 100% of the work. PHEVs fundamentally aren’t.
Anyway, the real world data from PHEV usage shows you are the outlier, most people don’t bother plugging them in regularly due to their limitations.
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I watched MKBHD’s review versus Doug DeMuro’s and only one of them took the time to point out the tailgate window and wipers. One reviews cars the other reviews gadgets.
I watched both Marques' review and Doug's, and yeah Doug's was better. I linked the MKBHD review because mainly I wanted to make the Model Y comparison, and Marques called it a "Model Y fighter" in the video title.
And also, Doug feels a little out of touch to me these days. Less about "quirks and features" that appeal to me (although he still covers that), and more about "enthusiast cars" (like his million dollar Porsche and Lambo) that don't really interest me. Although to be fair MKBHD isn't much better in that regard.
I remember when Marques coined the word “squiricle” which is a portmanteau of square and circle, to describe the shape of the steering wheel of a Tesla. From then on every “car reviewer” YouTuber started describing any steering wheel with this shape using the stupid portmanteau. It’s infuriating to car enthusiasts who knew that this kind of steering wheel is called a quartic steering wheel, with history behind the design.
The only thing I'd miss about the MY is the 7-seat feature. I love the fact that you can technically cram two more people in the car on the occasional times when you need to, without needing to drive a giant 7-seat boat. I wish more mid-size electric SUVs did the same.
I sat in the back seat of a model Y with two other adults and it was extremely painful.
That's not surprising. The point isn't to use it to regularly drive tall adults around back there. It's for when your family of four needs to take two of your kids' friends somewhere, that kind of thing. We probably use it once every couple of months, but it's super handy at those times, and folds away out of sight and mind the rest of the time.
The RAV4 Prime is extremely hard to get if you live outside of SoCal and maybe a few other areas. I'm in the southeast and a few years ago the local dealer told me that this entire region is only allocated a few Prime's each quarter. Even today I've never seen one in the wild.
Not only that, but it sounds like dealerships are still hardcore ripping off people who want to buy a RAV4 Prime. $20k over MSRP, refusing to sell without add-ons / warranty, etc.
Yep, wanted one but it made zero sense at the prices they wanted. Got a fully electric EV and very happy with the choice.
I figure there's a lot more to break on the Prime too.
> It's an EV most of the time
Nowhere on the Toyota site did I see anything about range on battery only. Still, I wouldn't mind having one.
I settled for a refurbed Leaf and have only needed an ICE vehicle twice, because of cargo capacity, not range.
Toyota is claiming "up to 52 miles on a full charge" on the recently announced 2026 RAV4 PHEV [1]. For me that would be enough to cover the majority of my trips.
Looks like I was mistaken though and you can't actually buy the 2026 model yet (and the Toyota website still shows the older 2025 model). And as another commenter pointed out, it may not actually be possible to buy the older model either due to insufficient production.
[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a69059379/2026-toyota-r...
A friend of mine bought one. It ended up being kind of awful. 53mi of range for a 40kwH battery? That's abysmal. Where's all the power going?
He traded it in for a used 2023 Model Y. Does 9-hr road trips all the time. I don't think he's going back.
My refurb had a fresh battery that says I'll get 150 miles if I avoid my normal "enthusiastic" pace.
53mi is weak sauce, but that sounds like the battery was near EOL. I charge mine at home which definitely keeps the wear and tear down.
The 23-25 RAV4 prime has a recall where the instrument cluster goes blank. AFAIK the whole thing needs to be replaced. Sounds just like the Ioniq ICCU issues.
Marques Brownlee is a kid who did shitty reviews of cell phones and is now a tech influencer, not an objective auto industry reviewer. He knows jack shit about the auto industry. Whatever comes out of his mouth is designed to make his clients - the companies who pay him to pimp their products - look as good as possible.
Rivians are wildly heavy and inefficient compared to the rest of the industry. The R1T weighs more than two of the heaviest version of the Ioniq 5, for example.
R1T owners seem to average about 2mi/kwhr, whereas the Ioniq 5 gets almost twice that...
Its fitting he would think the reference in EVs is the Model Y of all things, the technologically outdated, slow charging car whose sales are falling off a cliff while the manufacturer is trying to upsell you a monthly subscription for lane keeping.
Yet I was unable to find a better priced vehicle that does not charge monthly for remote start, access to the vehicle's camera recordings, phone key, and navigation.
And the monthly subscription is for a software feature that does quite a bit more than lane keeping, in my experience of the trial they offered during December. I did multiple 45 min drives across town, on urban and traffic light streets without intervention, and many other drives where intervention was only required 1 or 2 times. I could see real utility in it for someone with slower reflexes or poorer eyesight, such as the elderly.
I haven't seen anyone offer that capability at anywhere near Model Y's price.
here another review from my favorite car reviewer Mat Watson (carwow), from what I remember he complains about cleaning rear window wiper, but it feels all in all like paid ad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eepauvC5LU
The fact that Rivan gave preview access to a UK car reviewer while ignoring Out Of Spec who literally have 3 Rivians in their 'fleet' shows that Rivian is not yet serious about building a quality, customer-centric EV even though I truly want them to be successful.
Out of spec has 300K subscribers, carwow 10.8M, completely different league/reach
I have no idea who that is.
Is the RAV4 PHEV still seeing huge markups in the US?