Comment by Argonaut998
7 days ago
Press freedom !== entirety of freedom of speech
European politicians are calling every day to censor social media. People are arrested regularly for social media posts.
Censorship is absolutely an issue in Europe and it’s only getting worse. I welcome such an attitude as this.
The US's low press freedom index is precisely because people are being legally intimidated for wrongthink. It is not limited to the press, either. Mahmoud Khalil (the Palestinian activist detained by ICE on fake immigration charges for his political speech) is a famous example, but there are many.
The US's "commitment to free speech" is nowadays not very much more noble than Russia's principled stand against economic sanctions.
Plenty of people in the UK are arrested for wrongthink. You might think that's justified (e.g. because it is hateful) but it is still arresting someone for speech.
I didn't say that they weren't. Hundreds of people were arrested for opposing the proscription of Palestine Action. The UK's defence of free expression is not great.
What I did say is that the US's position is not as a defender of free speech either (and as Russia is not a defender of free trade). They have particular speech they like to promote (the KKK, stormfront) and particular speech they like to suppress (criticism of war crimes, books about being trans). Draw whatever conclusions you like from that.
Arrested for incitement not wrong think… if they had done the same thing in the street and there was evidence they would have been arrested too
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If this is a real take you need to rethink your view on the world.
Got anything substantive to say?
False equivalency. As a green card holder he does not share the same freedom of speech rights as that of a US citizen.
Do I need to point out that the OP describes a US commitment to the free speech of Europeans?
The worst part is that its "outsourced" to private organizations and NGOs - and thus the state claims its "not state driven" censorship. They want social stability- but have no grasp of the concept of that stability being only a leaky abstraction for situational stability. You can not claim the world is peaceful and utopia is at hand, sitting in a ski chalet in the alps- while the whole mountain slowly comes down with that house on it. Reality cant be reasoned away, the rain will fall, no matter how much laws there are against it.
There are so so many reasons to get arrested for social media posts that have nothing to do with censorship.
Be that as it may, people are being arrested for expressing wrong think
No, people are being arrested for making malicious communications. They would have suffered the same punishment if they had used email, letter, graffiti on a billboard.
You cannot go around threatening to harm people without repercussions.
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Considering all forms of sharing information as freedom, USA have huge problem with copyrights. Copyright limits people right to speech to protect interest of corporations, same as ban of stalking or slanders limits freedom of speech to protect victims.
I think people getting arrested for social media posts is specifically a UK thing. That and Russia are the only European countries where I've heard of that happening.
In most European countries, you'd have to go pretty far to get in legal trouble for social media posts. It's not impossible, but that's also true in the US. There are and have always been limits to speech. Everywhere. Also in the US (and not just under Trump, although he'd definitely increasing government censorship).
* Threats
* Blackmail
* Libel/slander
These are all restricted by law, because they hurt, silence or coerce people. Hate speech does the exact same thing. It's ridiculous to call hate speech protected free speech, while threats and blackmail are not.
A far worse attack on free speech is banning or restricting criticism of the government. That is the primary reason for free speech protections, and yet that's the very thing that the current US government is attacking on an unprecedented scale. See for example recent attacks on Jimmy Kimmel and Steven Colbert. That's something that would be unimaginable in many European countries.
I think nations should add content moderation as part of mandatory volunteer duties.
The online commons and tasks are too complex and absurd, and we have many people who value speech, who would be the ideal people to take on these tasks. Putting their values into action so to speak.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, so the moment people volunteer for this, they will themselves see whether the claims of misinformation and disinformation are overblown, and then vote accordingly.
Obviously speech is a super important part of our online lives, and should be treated as such.
The last thing the world needs is a state mandated hoarde of european reddit moderators plaguing the internet. no thanks.
Come now - why should it just be self selected volunteers or outsourced workers.
Even now on HN we are lucky with who moderates it but this should be more commmon.
And Mandatory service for your own nation. How else will you have a citizenry who can be plugged into their information economy.
This portal will just contain propaganda to serve the fascist agenda of the current US government.
Not saying that things are perfect in Europe but the US talking about freedom and freedom of speech sounds like a joke.