Comment by janalsncm

The problem with software is that it's all so, so decentralized.

If you're building a bridge in South Dakota, there's somebody in South Dakota building that bridge. That person has to follow South Dakota laws, and those laws can require whatever South Dakota regulators want, including sign-offs by professional engineers.

If you're a South Dakota resident signing up for a web portal, the company may have no knowledge of your jurisdiction specifically (and it would be a huge loss for the world if we moved to a "geo-block every single country by default until you clear it with your lawyers" regime). That portal may very well be hosted in Finland by a German hosting company, with the owners located in Sweden, running Open Source software primarily developed in Britain. It's possible that no single person affiliated with that portal's owner ever stepped food in your jurisdiction.

I work in manufacturing, though this comment is a generalization, and depends on what industry you’re in. What happens in practice is that products are certified by a third party regulatory agency, probably Intertek. They’re the ones who hire the professional engineers. The pushback comes from the design engineers being aware of the regulations, and saying: “This won’t get past Intertek.”

The downside is, bring money. Also, don’t expect to have an agile development process, because Intertek is a de facto phase gate. The upside is that maintaining your own regulatory lab is probably more expensive, and it’s hard to keep up with the myriad of international standards.

As for mom-n-pops, why do you want competition from them? Regulatory capture always favors consolidation of an industry. What happens in practice for consumers is that stuff comes from countries where the regulatory process can be bypassed by just putting the approval markings on everything.

Okay, that was sarcastic, but it’s possible that the vitality of software owes a lot to the fact that it’s relatively unregulated.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t mind some regulatory oversight, such as companies having to prove that they don’t store my personal data.

Note that I’m naming Intertek, not to point a finger at them, but because I don’t know if they have any competitors.

If you actually have that framework, then give it to someone with less to lose & all them to share it with the world.

> 2.) Doing what I wanted would require federal intervention, and the climate has not been ripe for new regulations, let alone governing bodies, in well over a decade.

Unionization could achieve the same end but the propaganda is strong in the US

  > You'd be surprised how many SE's would love for this to happen

I'm one of them, and for exactly the reason you say.

I worked as a physical engineer previously and I think the existence of PEs changes the nature of the game. I felt much more empowered to "talk back" to my boss and question them. It was natural to do that and even encouraged. If something is wrong everyone wants to know. It is worth disruption and even dealing with naive young engineers than it is to harm someone. It is also worth doing because it makes those engineers learn faster and it makes the products improve faster (insights can come from anywhere).

Part of the reason I don't associate my name with my account is so that I can talk more freely. I absolutely love software (and yes, even AI, despite what some might think given my comments) but I do really dislike how much deception there is in our industry. I do think it is on us as employees to steer the ship. If we don't think about what we're building and the consequences of them then our ship is beholden to the tides, not us. It is up to us to make the world a better place. It is up to us to make sure that our ship is headed towards utopia rather than dystopia (even if both are more of an idea than reality). I'd argue that if it were up to the tides then we'll end up crashing into the rocks. It's much easier to avoid that if we're managing the ship routinely than in a panic when we're headed in that direction. I think software has the capacity to make the world a far better place. That we can both do good and make money at the same time. But I also think the system naturally will disempower us. When we fight against the tides things are naturally harder and may even look like we're moving slower. But I think we often confuse speed and velocity, frankly, because direction is difficult to understand or predict. Still, it is best that we try our best and not just abdicate those decisions. The world is complex, so when things work they are in an unstable equilibrium. Which means small perturbations knock us off. Like one ship getting stuck shutting down a global economy. So it takes a million people and a billion tiny actions to make things go right and stay right (easier to stay than fix). But many of the problems we hate and are frustrated by are more stable states. Things like how wealth pools up, gathered by only a few. How power does the same. And so on. Obviously my feelings extend beyond software engineering, but my belief is that if we want the world to be a better place it takes all of us. The more that are willing to do something, the easier it gets. I'd also argue that most people don't need to do anything that difficult. The benefit and detriment of a complex machine is that small actions have larger consequences. Just because you're a small cog doesn't mean you have no power. You don't need to be a big cog to change the world, although you're unlikely to get recognition.

Exactly this - I had a role in a multinational, US-founded company, however - I was based in Canada - our title had the name "engineer" contained within it. We were NOT by any means certified professional engineers according to any regulatory body - we were great at our jobs, but that was the reality.

We were NOT allowed to refer to our job title when deployed to the province of Quebec, which has strong regulations around the use of the term "engineer". It was fine - we still went, did our jobs, satisfied our customers and fixed their issues.

>> In many countries you are only allowed to call yourself a Software Engineer if you actually have a professional title.

Which countries are those? Are you also only allowed to call yourself a Musician if you a Conservatory Degree?

>It is countries like US where anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like that have devalued our profession.

How have they devalued the profession when the labor of that professions is worth the most in the US?

You couldn't do that with civil engineering, because checking if a bridge was built correctly is actually really hard, and it's why it's such a process for engineers to sign off on phases of construction.

I’m big on increasing accountability and responsibility for software engineering, but I’ve learned about SEI CMMI, and worked in an ISO 9001 shop.

In some cases, these types of structures make sense, but in most others, they are way overkill.

It’s a conundrum. One of the reasons for the crazy growth of software, is the extreme flexibility and velocity of development, so slamming the brakes on that, would have enormous financial consequences in the industry (so … good luck with that …).

But that flexibility and velocity is also a big reason for the jurassic-scale disasters that are a regular feature of our profession. It’s entirely possible for people that are completely unqualified, to develop software full of holes. If they can put enough lipstick on it, it can become quite popular, with undesirable consequences.

I don’t think that the answer is some structured standard and testing regime, but I would love to see improvement.

Just not sure what that looks like.

I'm wary of centralizing the powers of the web like that.

GDPR doesn't have any minimum size before applying. There's a household exemption for personal use, but if you have one external user, you're regulated.

Worth noting that “PII” is not a concept under the GDPR and that it’s definition of Personal Data is much broader than identifiable information.

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