Comment by csmpltn
4 days ago
A good reminder of how things actually work, but the article could use some more balancing…
> Let that sink in. You scanned your European passport for a European professional network, and your data went exclusively to North American companies. Not a single EU-based subprocessor in the chain.
LinkedIn is an American product. The EU has had 20 years to create an equally successful and popular product, which it failed to do. American companies don’t owe your European nationalist ambitions a dime. Use their products at your own discretion.
Of course an American company is subject to American law. And of course an American company will prioritise other local, similar jurisdiction companies. And often times there’s no European option that competes on quality, price, etc to begin with. In other words I don’t see why any of this is somehow uniquely wrong to the OP.
> Here’s what the CLOUD Act does in plain language: it allows US law enforcement to force any US-based company to hand over data, even if that data is stored on a server outside the United States.
European law enforcement agencies have the same powers, which they easily exercise.
> European law enforcement agencies have the same powers.
No they don’t, not in the way that is implied here. A German court can subpoena German companies. Even for 100% subsidiaries in other European or non-European countries, one needs to request legal assistance. Which then is evaluated based on local jurisdiction of the subsidiary, not the parent. Microsoft Germany as operator is subject to US law and access. See Wikipedia “American exceptionalism” for further examples.
>The EU has had 20 years to create an equally successful and popular product, which it failed to do. American companies don’t owe your European nationalist ambitions a dime. Use their products at your own discretion.
I can see not everybody here will agree with me, but I find this take absolutely reasonable. The European space has the capacity and the resources to create a product that replaces something as trivial as Linkedin, and yet it takes the lazy approach of just using American products.
It's the same thing with China's manufactured products, at some point the rest of the world just accepted that everything gets done in China and then keep complaining about how abusive China can be.
The most recent issue is the military question. Europe relied for decades on the "cheap" protection of the USA. Now the USA gave the middle finger to Europe and Europe acts shocked, but Europe is not so shocked when it comes to the military budget it did not spend on self defense during all the time the Americans provided protection.
> "The most recent issue is the military question. Europe relied for decades on the "cheap" protection of the USA. Now the USA gave the middle finger to Europe and Europe acts shocked, but Europe is not so shocked when it comes to the military budget it did not spend on self defense during all the time the Americans provided protection."
Fully agree. Europe expects some kids from nowheresville Tennessee to die in a ditch defending Ukraine. The war will be over the second they need to draft 18 year-olds at scale from anywhere in western Europe to go defend "Europe". Nobody in France will die defending Poland, nobody in Greece will die defending Latvia. The EU is such a joke.
But Britain lost 457 soldiers, Germany 62, France 90, Spain 97, Italy 53, Denmark 43 to aid USA in Afghanistan.
2 replies →
Nobody is expecting anyone from Tennessee, but I know that's what the likes of Musk are making you believe.
2 replies →
The "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" advice has more weight when the person saying it hasn't taken control of all bootstraps for a good 75 years. This is this toxicity in the toxic relationship between the US and EU. Foot in our faces telling us to pick ourselves up. Ditto South America.
Victim mentality? Explain what stops Europe from producing a worthy LinkedIn competitor that challenges LinkedIn's hegemony.
> Victim mentality
Oh please.
4 replies →
That response reeks of astonishing arrogance. It doesn’t surprise me that nearly 50% of Americans voted for Donald Trump he perfectly embodies that mindset. Do you genuinely believe you are superior to the rest of the world? What you call “innovation” or a “better product” is often nothing more than the creation of dominant market positions through massive, capital deployment, followed by straightforward rent extraction. The European Union has every right to regulate markets operating within its jurisdiction, especially when there are credible concerns about anti-competitive practices and abuse of dominance. From what I’ve seen, there may be sufficient grounds to consider collective legal action against LinkedIn at the European level. As for so-called “European nationalist ambitions,” rest assured: Europe does not lack capable lawyers or regulatory expertise. I will be forwarding the relevant material to contacts of mine working within the European institutions in Brussels.
Why can't the EU deploy capital? Regulation doesn't create better products, more aggressive marketing techniques, or deeply entrepreneurial mindsets which favor innovation and growth.
While OP is quite aggressive here, there is a nugget of truth: innovation doesn't happen because "we have the best lawyers" or "the best regulations". Maybe some self-criticism would be warranted to solve the problem.
Also nothing forces Europeans to use LinkedIn. I deleted my account long ago after getting search requests from NSA-adjacent private intel companies.
Here's another JD Vance who doesn't understand what international rules are and justifies that with (lack of) innovation
Below you can find the relevant GDPR excerpt. But before that, let me add to the coment below that US companies only comply with what EU institutions can enforce and what suits them; which is normal, since China does the same. Well, it couldn’t have been said better: in fact, we’re beginning to view you the same way we view China. And China innovates a lot, right?
"Article 3 – Territorial scope (GDPR)
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processing takes place in the Union or not.
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union, where the processing activities are related to: (a) the offering of goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the Union; or (b) the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union.
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data by a controller not established in the Union, but in a place where Member State law applies by virtue of public international law."
8 replies →
Maybe 30% of Americans voted for Donald Trump. This response reeks of ignorance and hubris.
> Do you genuinely believe you are superior to the rest of the world?
This assertion wasn't made, in any way, by the person you're replying to, and it sounds as though it's being asked in anger. This entire conversation has been about data privacy and stewardship. The OP has pointed out, correctly, that there's nothing that has prevented a EU based professional social network from existing in a way that is satisfying for EU based data policy.
If you sign up on an American website, you've decided to do business with Americans in America. Why are you entitled to something that the people you are doing business with are not subject to?
It's the law.
>Maybe 30% of Americans voted for Donald Trump
If you don't vote, you don't count.
Trump received 77,284,118 votes, representing 49.8% of the ballots cast for president. The 30% figure you mention refes to the share of the total voting-eligible population, including those who did not vote. A national poll conducted on February 16–18 found that 42.4% approve of Trump’s job performance, while 54.6% disapprove. Whether you accept it or not and whether you are a Democrat or Republican Trump now is the face of America and most of Europeans are of the same opinion.
Regardless of the fact that LinkedIn is an American company, it is required to comply with the GDPR when operating within the European Union. I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe that there is evidence of full compliance here.
1 reply →
The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must.
Indeed. But Americans are told they never use that strength to their advantage. It's all just the working 23 hours a day, determination and chasing the American dream that has resulted in supreme economic success.
Military is just for defence against baddies and liberating countries from dictators etc
1 reply →
> That response reeks of astonishing arrogance. It doesn’t surprise me that nearly 50% of Americans voted for Donald Trump he perfectly embodies that mindset. Do you genuinely believe you are superior to the rest of the world? What you call “innovation” or a “better product” is often nothing more than the creation of dominant market positions through massive, capital deployment, followed by straightforward rent extraction. The European Union has every right to regulate markets operating within its jurisdiction, especially when there are credible concerns about anti-competitive practices and abuse of dominance. From what I’ve seen, there may be sufficient grounds to consider collective legal action against LinkedIn at the European level. As for so-called “European nationalist ambitions,” rest assured: Europe does not lack capable lawyers or regulatory expertise. I will be forwarding the relevant material to contacts of mine working within the European institutions in Brussels.
This all seems to miss the point, which is: why does the US create so much stuff that Europe doesn't? Turning that useful reflective question into an attack on Americans sounds perfect if you want to refuse to work it out and change accordingly.
>why does the US create so much stuff that Europe doesn't?
because the "stuff" in question is social networks who live, as the name suggests, off network effects. To have a European LinkedIn would require everyone in Europe to switch at the same time. Which can be trivially arranged, we just would need the courage to ban LinkedIn and every other American social media company. We'd have a clone up and running in a month. You only need to look to China who did exactly this.
3 replies →
> This all seems to miss the point, which is: why does the US create so much stuff that Europe doesn't? Turning that useful reflective question into an attack on Americans sounds perfect if you want to refuse to work it out and change accordingly.
Because the US had so much venture capital, during the time of the low interest rates it was basically free money so they could afford to throw it to the wall and see what sticks. 90% of them would sink but it didn't matter. That doesn't fly here.
Then, they used that money to subsidise adoption, and then once the users were hooked into rent extraction as the OP mentioned. We call this process enshittification these days, and it's a really predatory business practice.
European companies don't do that as much because we have more guardrails against it, and more importantly we didn't have random cash sloshing up the walls. American could do that especially because of the petrodollar. Once the dollar loses its international status it will be a lot harder to do (and it already is due to the rising interest rates).
It was no surprise that exactly with the rising interest rates all the companies started tightening up their subscriptions. Netflix, amazon, all exploding in cost and introducing ads. Same with meta's platforms.
Oh no! Not your "relevant material" and your "contacts working within the European institutions in Brussels".
Listen, I'm truly sorry to be so direct but you sound like exactly the kind of person that needs to hear this.
> Europe does not lack capable lawyers or regulatory expertise. I will be forwarding the relevant material to contacts of mine working within the European institutions in Brussels.
Who do you think - between the current US government and the kinds of global, powerful tech behemoths being discussed in this article - gives a single flying fuck about more European lawyers and more European regulation? You literally didn't get the first thing about the point I made. You perfectly played out that classic trope we've all come to know. How about instead of lawyers and regulation Europe actually produces a successful competitor that challenges LinkedIn in any successful manner? What makes you think an army of lawyers and some more regulation are going to change simple, obvious facts about Europe's decline in productivity, innovation, etc?
Listen. The reason not a single worthy competitor has come out of Europe is because Europe just doesn't have what it takes. And it never will have what it takes, because the mindset is exactly what you're demonstrating here: EU is not out to actually build anything useful, it's about hiring armies of lawyers and creating paperwork and regulation nobody has asked for. Your funds and money should go to technology, competitiveness, tech education - not this lawfare nonsense. The EU right now doesn't have the right people, the work ethic, the funds, the innovation, the will to challenge and dream big, the incentives to bet big on tech. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it. But please, tell us more about how we need a bit more lawyers twiddling their thumbs on the tax payers' bill.
You need to understand something quickly: Europe depends sorely on the US and China. You don't change that through lawyers. Europe is behind on every front.
Building a site like LinkedIn is really easy. Europe can easily do this. All it is is yet another social media site of which there are tons. There is nothing special about LinkedIn.
The reason we didn't was critical mass. Everyone was already on linkedin and there wasn't really a reason to pick something else until the US started becoming a nuisance. It's marketing, not technical.
I'm sure an EU alternative will come up now that the US is no longer a trustworthy partner. A lot of people like myself now have ethical issues with using american products (especially from big tech) and there's a lot of demand for EU-local stuff that wasn't there before.
4 replies →
Sure, in fact it's USA that is well behind Europe in happines (World Happiness Ranking) , life expectancy , infant mortality rate, general literacy ( PISA scores ), homicide rate, mass shootings frequency, violent crimes, inequality, democracy ( as reported by the Democracy Index) , press freedom ( World Press Freedom Index), just to name the first indexes that came to my mind.
One detail you might have overlooked: even if you're an American company - if you offer your services in Europe (through the web or otherwise), you're subject to European laws and regulations, including the GDPR.
"Sue me" is what a purely cis-Atlantean company might say.
Which is of course exactly what is happening with the likes of Google and Meta.
2 replies →
> In other words I don’t see why any of this is somehow uniquely wrong to the OP.
Did you read the article? It's a dark pattern. It is an act that takes 3 minutes to perform. Yet it takes multiple days of reading legal documents to understand what actually happens. I would argue this feels wrong, to most people who interact with technology.
We have a set of laws here that companies are obliged to follow, regardless of where they are incorporated, so we expect that. We are used to having some basic human rights here, perhaps unlike most Americans these days.
Data processes and ownership of biometric data should be made explicitly clear. It shouldn't take days of reading to understand. It feels wrong to me too.
I see this sentiment constantly. It is genuinely hilarious to watch Americans lecture the world about the free market while feigning shock that Europe hasn't produced its own tech giants.
Claiming "the EU had 20 years to build an equally successful product" is the geopolitical equivalent of a deeply dysfunctional 1950s household. For decades, the husband insisted he handle all the enterprise and security so he could remain the undisputed head of the family. Then, after squandering his focus on a two-decade drunken military bender in the Middle East, he stumbles home, realizes he's overextended, and screams at his wife for not having her own Silicon Valley corner office, completely ignoring that he was the one who ruthlessly bought out her ventures and demanded her dependence in the first place.
America engineered a digitally dependent Europe because it funneled global data straight to US monopolies. To blame Europeans for playing the exact role the US forced them into is historical gaslighting. And pretending the CLOUD Act's global, extraterritorial overreach is the same as local EU law enforcement is just the icing on the delusion cake.
The US is not just alone, EU governments are fully cooperating, happily.
A Microsoft official explained during a french parliamentary session that he couldn't guarantee that the State data was safe from US requests. It created a shockwave, as everyone discovered what was evident from the start.
Of course, nothing happened, and they renewed every contract since then. We could talk about the F35 procurement.
They renewed every contract, but the French government is hard at work at replacements for Microsoft stuff, called 'la suite'. The Germans are doing the same under the name 'opendesk' and the suite shares a lot of common tools in fact.
This predates Trump II by the way, they did have more foresight than a lot of EU institutions.
Things have changed for sure but big ships take long to turn.
3 replies →
Oh, the EU is a victim now? And the EU's laziness, bloat and uselessness is the US's fault now?
And where's all of this evidence of this hidden extraordinary European talent and ability that just needs to be unleashed given some more lawyers and regulation?
This is a joke.
Exactly! It's the same with the military dependency.
America wanted a weak Europe, to be dependent on them so they would have geopolitical influence. They basically bought influence. They didn't want us to have nukes to defend ourselves from the Russians (the French are frowned upon and the British don't really have their own, they are beholden to the US). It also gave them a huge market for their products and services (and no there was no imbalance if you take services into account which Trump doesn't).
Then Trump comes and complains that we're not investing equally. Well no, but this was exactly as his predecessors designed. Now we will build it up but of course we will need to build our own nuclear umbrella and we will no longer give the US its influence it previously had, obviously.
We also don't need quite as much military expenditure anyway because we're just looking to defend ourselves, not trample oil-producing countries. The only times we did that were exactly due to the US' bought influence.
everything you're pointing out is better explained by "Europe didn't want to spend the money, they'd rather let America spend". This was true right after WWII because Europe needed to dedicate money to rebuild their economies. It remained true as later Europe continued to rely on tariff regimes to protect inefficient home industry sectors, and financed increasingly expensive welfare state programs to appease voters.
The US was only in favor of Europe rebuilding after the war, and rightfully against the rest of it.
the US has never been anything but helpful to Europe, but Europeans need a boogeyman to draw attention away from their own failings. It is very important to the European psyche that they be seen as near perfect on every measure. Americans are much more comfortable with, and benefit from, self criticism.
> America wanted a weak Europe, to be dependent on them so they would have geopolitical influence
100% in agreement
Thank you for your words I couldn't say any better. I agree on everything but one thing. I definetely don't find this hilarious. I find it frightening and disgusting.
Very well said.
> To blame Europeans for playing the exact role the US forced them into is historical gaslighting.
Hear hear
> American companies don’t owe your European nationalist ambitions a dime. Use their products at your own discretion.
As a fairly vociferous eu person....I fully agree.
However, gdpr covers all eu residents, so if US companies don't want to obey eu law, that'sa fine, too.
Nobody is forcing you to use LinkedIn. LinkedIn is an American product, made by an American company in America, subject to American law. When you create an account - you agree to American terms and conditions, arbitrated by American courts.
LinkedIn doesn't need to obey to EU law. It needs to obey to American law, which allows LinkedIn to do business with anybody (other than people from sanctioned countries) whilst complying with US law. EU's laws don't matter in the US. The EU can sue LinkedIn, but LinkedIn can just safely ignore any lawsuits and ignore sanctions, because they are an American company subject to American laws.
EU citizens are willingly subscribing to an American service, then complain the American service doesn't abide by EU laws. That's laughable at every level, to any individual with a modicum of intelligence. If you don't agree to the terms, don't use LinkedIn. You are not entitled to anything.
> you agree to American terms and conditions, arbitrated by American courts.
"Designated Countries. We use the term “Designated Countries” to refer to countries in the European Union (EU), European Economic Area (EEA), and Switzerland."
"If you reside in the “Designated Countries”, you are entering into this Contract with LinkedIn Ireland Unlimited Company (“LinkedIn Ireland”) and LinkedIn Ireland will be the controller of your personal data provided to, or collected by or for, or processed in connection with our Services."
"If you live in the Designated Countries, the laws of Ireland govern all claims related to LinkedIn's provision of the Services" "With respect to jurisdiction, you and LinkedIn agree to choose the courts of the country to which we direct your Services where you have habitual residence for all disputes arising out of or relating to this User Agreement, or in the alternative, you may choose the responsible court in Ireland."
Source: https://www.linkedin.com/legal/user-agreement
I'm not sure from where you got your information.
4 replies →
> LinkedIn doesn't need to obey to EU law.
Yes, they do.
> If you don't agree to the terms, don't use LinkedIn.
We agree on that.
Operator of the LinkedIn Website:
LinkedIn Ireland Unlimited Company Wilton Place, Dublin 2, Ireland
I agree that people should just stay off LinkedIn. Keep your local job boards alive. That being said:
> LinkedIn doesn't need to obey to EU law.
This is false. A company must follow the law of the jurisdictions where it operates.
> The EU has had 20 years to create an equally successful and popular product, which it failed to do. American companies don’t owe your European nationalist ambitions a dime.
So true.
There's a lot of passive-aggressive anti-US rhetoric and fearmongering on HN at the moment, while America is simply doing what it's always done - innovating and thriving.
As a European, I wish our continent was able to be more like America, as opposed to jealously coveting its outcomes.