> At Amirkabir University of Technology in Tehran, students dressed in black shouted “Long Live the Shah,” a reference to Reza Pahlavi, the exiled son of Iran’s last monarch, who has emerged as a leader of the recent protests.
This is unfortunate and gives the regime a chance to say "see, these people are puppets of the monarchy".
I feel like the people who want a monarchy installed are trying to fish in troubled waters.
Eff off. Butt out. Until you’re facing down the barrel of a gun hopeful after more than 40 years (longer than I have been alive), don’t judge others. And to actually argue your substance:
On the one side people argue that Iranians will potentially be left with a dangerous power vacuum when the regime is overthrown, on the other side people (like you) argue that Iranians shouldn’t support Reza Pahlavi, who has explicitly said on numerous occasions that he doesn’t want to rule as king, but rather to facilitate a democratic transition and to allow the people to choose who they want to rule, simply because supporting him means that they are now “monarchists”. You are aware that Britain is a monarchy? Or is your small brain not capable of understanding that a monarchy can be a democratic monarchy?
The points are valid, but why the personal insults?
Re: the grandparent comment.
"Javid Shah" is one of the main chants of the recent protests. It's not particularly specific. Reza Pahlavi is the main figurehead of the opposition. He's a likely candidate to preside over a transitional government if this new revolution succeeds.
The regime's positioning is largely irrelevant now. The people are liable to adopt the opposite position simply because they see the regime as their enemy.
FYI - in Persianate Islam (Shia and Sunni), the 40th day of mourning is extremely important, which is called Arbaeen, Chehelom, Chawlisan, or Qirq depending on the region. This is when mourners will conduct a procession.
It has been roughly 40 days since the massacres began, and something similar happened in 1979 during the revolution, which was largely sparked during the mourning period (chehelom) for the Qom Massacre.
The cynic in me feels that this must have been recognized by policymakers given how critical the motif of martyrdom is in Persianate culture as Ali Shariati, Ahmed Fardid, and Jalal Al-e-Ahmad - the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture, as well as the Shia undertones of the 1979 Revolution - have elucidated.
Edit: can't reply
> This just shows how bad the situation for our philosophy and culture have become in the last century...
Yep.
I don't agree with their beliefs, but you cannot decouple a large portion of modern Iran from Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad's motifs, which themselves are largely derived from Iqbal and Heidegger.
That's just an opinion, not an argument. It adds nothing valuable to this discussion. If you want to criticize, can you point to specific things and explain your reasoning? It might be useful, to make an actual point. Or whatever.
1. "Occidentosis: A Plague from the West" by Jalal Al-e-Ahmad
2. "Red Shi'ism vs. Black Shi'ism" by Ali Shariati
3. "Martyrdom: Arise and Bear Witness" by Ali Shariati
4. "The Purification of the Soul" by Ahmed Fardid
Most modern Iranian Shia philosophy is largely a synthesis of Heiddiger and Muhammad Iqbal ("Saare Jahan Se Aacha, Hindustan Humara"), as these Iranian philosophers were largely from Khorasan and Dari speaking so most were acquaintances with Iqbal, who popularized Heiddiger's thought across Persianate society.
Basically, if you synthesize Heidigger's concept of authenticity with the Persianate motif of martyrdom with a dose of Persianate chauvinism and Shia theology, you have what became Khomeinism.
It's basically Maoism but with the Marxist-Leninist and Confucian undertones replaced with Shia and Persianate undertones.
I also can't help but notice how both Mao/Li/Chen and Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad were all members of the rural elite who faced dislocation when immigrating to urban society in the early 20th century.
Edit: can't reply
> Are there specific translations you’d call out
We had English translations published by the Iranian government at Widener Library [0]. There might be similar ones online. Idk, I don't want to get on a list.
> Wait, is this Farsi? I think I can parse it with my rough knowledge of Hindi
Muhammad Iqbal was both an Indian freedom fighter, the creator of the Pakistan movement, and one of the first modern Persianate scholars.
Back during that era, most Persian scholarship was centered amongst the South Asian community. Additionally, educated Koshur and Paharis (irrespective of religion) from that era were heavily Persianate in outlook (eg. Even Koshur Hindus back then would consider studying a BA Persian as an alternative to a BA Sanskrit).
As such, Iqbal's works were very common amongst the madrassa-turned-western educated Iranian intelligentsia of the early 20th century.
> None of the Arab Spring revolutions have gone well
None of the Arab-Spring populations had democratic rule since, arguably, Carthage. Iran is different [1].
More importantly, Iran was recently a secular society. It has memory of education and freedom. Many Arab countries have been fundamentalist for their entire modern eras.
Iran had a parliament until they wanted Iran to control its own oil, whence the US and UK overthrew Mossadegh. They had ayatollah Borujerdi wreck the democracy. Also Kashani who helped oust Mossadegh, and then later supported Khomeini.
The US recently worked to oust the secular leader of Syria to replace him with an ISIS leader. Actually al-Sharaa was on the US wanted terrorist list, only removed three months ago. Many such stories.
maybe the fact that Persians != Arabs will improve their odds. Recent uprisings had more luck (i.e. Bangladesh), even if it’s too early to fully assess their success
> At Amirkabir University of Technology in Tehran, students dressed in black shouted “Long Live the Shah,” a reference to Reza Pahlavi, the exiled son of Iran’s last monarch, who has emerged as a leader of the recent protests.
This is unfortunate and gives the regime a chance to say "see, these people are puppets of the monarchy".
I feel like the people who want a monarchy installed are trying to fish in troubled waters.
Eff off. Butt out. Until you’re facing down the barrel of a gun hopeful after more than 40 years (longer than I have been alive), don’t judge others. And to actually argue your substance: On the one side people argue that Iranians will potentially be left with a dangerous power vacuum when the regime is overthrown, on the other side people (like you) argue that Iranians shouldn’t support Reza Pahlavi, who has explicitly said on numerous occasions that he doesn’t want to rule as king, but rather to facilitate a democratic transition and to allow the people to choose who they want to rule, simply because supporting him means that they are now “monarchists”. You are aware that Britain is a monarchy? Or is your small brain not capable of understanding that a monarchy can be a democratic monarchy?
The points are valid, but why the personal insults?
Re: the grandparent comment.
"Javid Shah" is one of the main chants of the recent protests. It's not particularly specific. Reza Pahlavi is the main figurehead of the opposition. He's a likely candidate to preside over a transitional government if this new revolution succeeds.
The regime's positioning is largely irrelevant now. The people are liable to adopt the opposite position simply because they see the regime as their enemy.
https://archive.ph/P3QFa
This article glows.
FYI - in Persianate Islam (Shia and Sunni), the 40th day of mourning is extremely important, which is called Arbaeen, Chehelom, Chawlisan, or Qirq depending on the region. This is when mourners will conduct a procession.
It has been roughly 40 days since the massacres began, and something similar happened in 1979 during the revolution, which was largely sparked during the mourning period (chehelom) for the Qom Massacre.
The cynic in me feels that this must have been recognized by policymakers given how critical the motif of martyrdom is in Persianate culture as Ali Shariati, Ahmed Fardid, and Jalal Al-e-Ahmad - the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture, as well as the Shia undertones of the 1979 Revolution - have elucidated.
Edit: can't reply
> This just shows how bad the situation for our philosophy and culture have become in the last century...
Yep.
I don't agree with their beliefs, but you cannot decouple a large portion of modern Iran from Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad's motifs, which themselves are largely derived from Iqbal and Heidegger.
> Ali Shariati, Ahmed Fardid, and Jalal Al-e-Ahmad - the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture
This just shows how bad the situation for our philosophy and culture have become in the last century...
I really wouldn't call these charlatans "pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture"
That's just an opinion, not an argument. It adds nothing valuable to this discussion. If you want to criticize, can you point to specific things and explain your reasoning? It might be useful, to make an actual point. Or whatever.
Is there a good book on “the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy” that could serve as an overview to someone unfamiliar?
The main primary sources I'd say are:
1. "Occidentosis: A Plague from the West" by Jalal Al-e-Ahmad
2. "Red Shi'ism vs. Black Shi'ism" by Ali Shariati
3. "Martyrdom: Arise and Bear Witness" by Ali Shariati
4. "The Purification of the Soul" by Ahmed Fardid
Most modern Iranian Shia philosophy is largely a synthesis of Heiddiger and Muhammad Iqbal ("Saare Jahan Se Aacha, Hindustan Humara"), as these Iranian philosophers were largely from Khorasan and Dari speaking so most were acquaintances with Iqbal, who popularized Heiddiger's thought across Persianate society.
Basically, if you synthesize Heidigger's concept of authenticity with the Persianate motif of martyrdom with a dose of Persianate chauvinism and Shia theology, you have what became Khomeinism.
It's basically Maoism but with the Marxist-Leninist and Confucian undertones replaced with Shia and Persianate undertones.
I also can't help but notice how both Mao/Li/Chen and Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad were all members of the rural elite who faced dislocation when immigrating to urban society in the early 20th century.
Edit: can't reply
> Are there specific translations you’d call out
We had English translations published by the Iranian government at Widener Library [0]. There might be similar ones online. Idk, I don't want to get on a list.
> Wait, is this Farsi? I think I can parse it with my rough knowledge of Hindi
Muhammad Iqbal was both an Indian freedom fighter, the creator of the Pakistan movement, and one of the first modern Persianate scholars.
Back during that era, most Persian scholarship was centered amongst the South Asian community. Additionally, educated Koshur and Paharis (irrespective of religion) from that era were heavily Persianate in outlook (eg. Even Koshur Hindus back then would consider studying a BA Persian as an alternative to a BA Sanskrit).
As such, Iqbal's works were very common amongst the madrassa-turned-western educated Iranian intelligentsia of the early 20th century.
[0] - https://library.harvard.edu/collections/middle-eastern-colle...
1 reply →
Brave heroes.
Good luck to them. None of the Arab Spring revolutions have gone well. 0/6
> None of the Arab Spring revolutions have gone well
None of the Arab-Spring populations had democratic rule since, arguably, Carthage. Iran is different [1].
More importantly, Iran was recently a secular society. It has memory of education and freedom. Many Arab countries have been fundamentalist for their entire modern eras.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_classical_Iran
Iran had a parliament until they wanted Iran to control its own oil, whence the US and UK overthrew Mossadegh. They had ayatollah Borujerdi wreck the democracy. Also Kashani who helped oust Mossadegh, and then later supported Khomeini.
The US recently worked to oust the secular leader of Syria to replace him with an ISIS leader. Actually al-Sharaa was on the US wanted terrorist list, only removed three months ago. Many such stories.
Crass bullshit. Democracy wont survive in iran until the govt want their oil to be depleted by western war hungry demons. We truly live in hell
1 reply →
maybe the fact that Persians != Arabs will improve their odds. Recent uprisings had more luck (i.e. Bangladesh), even if it’s too early to fully assess their success
The status quo in Iran isn’t going well either; the economy is terrible and getting worse, and the government is slaughtering its own citizens.
> the economy is terrible and getting worse
we could always stop punishing the people of Iran for their government...
4 replies →
The Tunisian revolution was a success.
good luck just dont become western slaves
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