everyone in the comments is talking about stylometry and rewriting your posts with LLMs. the paper barely uses stylometry. the attack surface is semantic: your interests, your city, the conference you mentioned once 2 years ago. you can't rewrite your way out of having said you work in fintech in austin and own a golden retriever.
I post under my real name here, pretty much the only place I post. It keeps me honest and straight in what I say when I choose to say it. I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration. I don't know what it will be but I would expect some adversarial stuff. Trying to keep clean is what I'd prefer for myself and my kids.
On other hand, the Neal Stephenson's Fall or, Dodge in Hell book has an interesting idea in early phase of the book where a person agrees to what we now know "flood the zone with sh*t" (Steve Bannon's sadly very effective strategy) to battle some trolls. Instead of trying to keep clean, the intent is just to spam like crazy with anything so nobody understands the core. It is cleverly explored in the book albeit for too short of a time before moving into the virtual reality. I think there are a few people out here right now practicing this.
> I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but the fact that people consider it inevitable we’ll all have an immutable social acceptance grade that includes everything from teenage shitposts to things you said after a loved one died, or getting diagnosed with cancer, makes me regret putting even a moment of my professional energies towards advancing tech in the US.
I think he's wrong and I'm willing to say that. The ability for people to move beyond the fundamental attribution error is well known and takes major resources to correct that. For anyone that posts a comment, assuming you want to have easy attribution later is that you must future proof your words. That is not possible and it is extremely suppressive to express yourself.
For example:
"Ellen Page is fantastic in the Umbrella Academy TV show"
Innocent, accurate, support, and positive in 2019.
Same comment read after 1 Dec 2020 (Transition coming out): Insensitive, demeaning, in accurate.
That we identify social media as "tech" is very strange.
Yes, they have a lot of servers. But that isn't their core innovation. Their core innovations are the constant expansion of unpermissioned surveillance, the integration of dossiers, correlating people's circumstances, behavior and psychology. And incentivizing the creation of addictive content (good, bad, and dreck) with the massive profits they obtain when they can use that as the delivery vector for intrusively "personalized" manipulation, on behest of the highest bidder, no matter how sketchy, grifty or dishonest.
Unpremissioned (or dark patterned, deceptive, surreptitious, or coercive permissioned) surveillance should be illegal. It is digital stalking. Used as leverage against us, and to manipulate us, via major systems spread across the internet.
And the fact that this funds infinite pages of addicting (as an extremely convenient substitute for boredom) content, not doing anyone or society any good, is a mental health, and society health concern.
Tech scaling up conflicts of interest, is not really tech. Its personal information warfare.
I have lived my life on the web under the assumption the other Tom Clancy will leave enough chaff in my wake to make things hard. But probably not because I make the same 5 or 6 jokes over and over.
I am similar in that all of my interactions are with my real name and it is unique enough that just putting it into google will instantly identify me. There is one other 'jeff sponaugle' but I think he is far more annoyed with my presence than I would be with him.
On the plus side, someone will sometimes say while talking to me - oh your are that Subaru guy, or that youtube guy, or whatever and that is fun connection.
If in one post you say you’re Jewish, in the next you are Christian, in the next your Hindu, in the next youre Atheist it’s harder to know what your really are.
You could even mislead people if you know the difference between your and you‘re.
I think as the younger generations come of age they simply will not care about that sort of thing. Like it or not, it's part of the culture and might just be accepted as the norm.
I think it's kind of happened already. All the time we see news of politicians or famous people having their very old photos, comments, or reddit accounts found with distasteful takes. And it seems they can mostly just handwave it away with "Hey that was 10 years ago and I wouldn't make those comments today" and nothing seems to come of it.
At this point, where everyone is using an LLM to post and I'm having to use an LLM to keep up and summarise it, I think I'll just ...stop and go outside for quite a while...
Will they realise their life has devolved to pretending an LLM is them and watching whilst the LLM interfaces {I was going to say 'interacts', not this fits!} with other bots.
Will they then go outside whilst 'their' bot "owns the libs" or whatever?
Hopefully at some point there is a Damascus road awakening.
Autonomous Proxies for Execration - spam bots whose entire purpose is flooding the internet with spam so as to make identifying anything true utterly impossible. If you can't differentiate between real and unreal information in online comments, then online comments stop being a significant factor in shaping public opinion. You need to abstract - identify reliable sources of information, individuals or institutions that do the work to collect and curate.
We're already seeing this as a side effect of the mishmash of influence operations on social media - with so many competing interests, mixed in with real trolls, outrage farmers, grifters, and the like, you literally cannot tell without extensive reputation vetting whether or not a source is legitimate. Even then, any suggestion that an account might be hacked or compromised, like a significant sudden deviation in style or tone or subject matter, you have to balance everything against a solid model of what's actually behind probably 80% or more of the "user" posts online.
There are a lot of aligned interests causing APEs to manifest - they're a mix of psyop style influence campaigns, some aimed at demoralization, others at outrage engagement, others at smears and astroturfing and even doing product placement and subtle advertisement. The net effect is chaos, so they might as well be APEs.
> I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration.
You don’t know what information about you can bring you in trouble in the future.
Fifteen years or so ago I read an article arguing that by the time Millennials are nearing retirement and have more political power, people will give less of a shit about what you did online in your twenties because we will have, out of necessity, learned that asshattery in your twenties is largely irrelevant to your trustworthiness in your sixties.
When I was that age, you could tell the kids who had political ambitions self-censored online. But now every is buck wild so you have to ignore that when looking at people.
For example, a MASSIVE portion of Millennials and younger looking at the Main election are pretty chill about the leading Democratic candidate having a Nazi tattoo because of this very thing. Basically, "dumb, drunk, deployed Marines will get cool skull and crossbones tattoos in their early twenties, and so what if he said a couple ill-worded somewhat misogynistic things in his twenties, that was decades ago, and he's obviously a different person."
Contrast with Bill Clinton, where he literally had to explain away university marijuana usage TWENTY YEARS AFTER THE FACT.
Point is, I think we're witnessing this evolution happening right now.
"We apply our de-anonymization methodology to the Netflix Prize dataset, which contains anonymous movie ratings of 500,000 subscribers of Netflix [...]. We demonstrate that an adversary who knows only a little bit about an individual subscriber can easily identify this subscriber’s record in the dataset."
and that was 20 years ago! de-anonymization techniques have improved by leaps and bounds since then, alongside the massive growth in various technology that enhances/enables various techniques.
i think the age of (pseduo-)anonymous internet browsing will be over soon. certainly within my lifetime (and im not that young!). it might be by regulation, it might be by nature of dragnet surveillance + de-anonymization, or a combination of both. but i think it will be a chilling time.
That's a great background paper on the Netflix attack, we make a pretty direct comparison in section 5. We also try to use similar methods for comparison in sections 4 and 6. In section 5 we transform peoples Reddit comments into movie reviews with an LLM and then see if LLMs are better than naraynan purely on movie reviews. LLMs are still much better (getting about 8% but the average person only had 2.5 movies and 48% only shared one movie, so very difficult to match)
awesome, i saw the mention in the introduction but i havent yet had a chance for a thorough read through of the paper -- ive just skimmed it. looking forward to reading it in-depth!
Throwaway accounts using "clever" turns of phrase can often be anonymized by double click, right-clicking -> googling their witty pun and seeing their the sole instance elsewhere, on Twitter, Facebook, etc
If I see a couple words I dont know in a row, I can infer a posters real name.
Id be more specific but any example is doxxing, literally so
If you have access to the whole site dataset it's much more reliable with simpler checks. You can just use word usage frequency of common words. Someone posted a demo here of doing this to HN comments which was very effective at showing alt accounts for a user.
I assume one's vocabulary is basically a fingerprint, even if one doesn't use unique turns of phrase. Domain knowledge just leaks in and we aren't conscious of it being identifiable.
I bet we're about to see reduction of online public communications. Count how many times you had a desire to share your knowledge or correct someone online (aka somebody is WRONG on the internet). People would stop doing that, just to not train some big-corp model using their knowledge. Artists already not happy about that, but there are many other types of expertise people will stop sharing.
Despite being pseudonymous, I don’t take great pains to hide who I am. I am in my 50s and live on the West coast. I don’t have socials and I don’t post anywhere else. Have at it!
If you are semi-retired, you’re free from the threat of cancellation. As long as you aren’t posting about crimes, there’s limits to what anyone can legally do to you. (Still, it’s good to be prudent and limit sharing.)
Unless you're in the nebulous situation of being Hispanic in the US, in which case you might get profiled. Or you might have family with jobs that are subject to pressure -- and right now, that seems like most jobs, because calling employers spineless is an insult to worms. Or if you'd like to travel by air, because watchlists are back, and carriers may just refuse service.
Fair enough. I am in a category that’s typically lower risk (though not zero) for profiling, so sometimes I forget that. Still, the potential risk isn’t a good reason to silence your voice if there are issues that you find important. The best defense is to avoid giving out personal details and avoid discussion on non-pseudonymous social sites.
I'm not sure the practical implications are as dramatic as the paper suggests. Most adversaries who would want to deanonymize people at scale (governments, corporations) already have access to far more direct methods. The people most at risk from this are probably activists and whistleblowers in jurisdictions where those direct methods aren't available, not average users.
While you're right as in, it's nothing new given a trail of info, here they didn't need to do classical feature engineering, but purely LLM (agentic) flow. But yes, given how much information is self exposed online I am not surprised this is made easier with LLMs. But the interesting application is identifying users with multiple usernames on HN or reddit.
Attacks can be chained, and this can all be automated. For example, imagine pigbutchering scams... except it's there, similar to some voice-cloning scams, just to get enough data to stylometrically fingerprint you for future reference. You make sure to never comment too much or spicily under your real name, but someone slides into your DMs with a thoughtful, informative, high-quality comment, and you politely strike up an interesting conversation which goes well and you think nothing of it and have forgotten it a week later - and 5 years later you're in jail or fired or have been doxed or been framed. 'Direct methods' can't deliver that kind of capability post hoc, even for actors who do have access to those methods (which is a vanishing percentage of all actors). No one has cheap enough intelligence and skilled labor to do this right now. But they will.
I actually think those most at risk are normal people the activists will harass. Soon it will be possible for anybody who works at the “wrong” business or expresses any opinion on any subject to be casus belli for unhinged, terminally online, mentally ill people who are mad about the thing of the day to start making threatening calls to your employer or making false reports to police or sending deep fake porn to your mom.
I think that we are close to a time where the Internet is so toxic and so policed that the only reasonable response is to unplug.
I can imagine a lot of countries who want to control what their citizens say abroad. I know Iraq in Saddam Hussein's time did it in the UK, China does it now.
People who comment about their boss and workplaces?
People on HN who talk about their work but want to remain anonymous? People who don’t want to be spammed if they comment in a community? Or harassed if they comment in a community? Maybe someone doesn’t want others to find out they are posting in r/depression. (Or r/warhammer.)
Anonymity is a substantial aspect of the current internet. It’s the practical reason you can have a stance against age verification.
On the other hand, if anonymity can be pierced with relative ease, then arguments for privacy are non sequiturs.
I want to use "slower" methods of identification more. Like say for instance within a few blocks of you a human can identify who you are for any service that wants to do some kind of verification/proof you are/have XYZ.
We could designate specific individuals to do for you and me just like we do for today's trust authorities for website certificates.
No more verified profiles by uploading names, emails and passports and photographs(gosh!). Just turned 18 and want to access insta? Go to the local high school teacher to get age verified. Finished a career path and want it on linked in? Go to the company officer. Are you a new journalist who wants to be designated on X as so but anonymously? Go to the notary public.
One can do this cryptographically with no PII exchanged between the person, the community or the webservice. And you can be anonymous yet people know you are real.
It can be all maintained on a tree of trust, every individual in the chain needs to be verified, and only designated individuals can do actions that are sensitive/important.
You only need to do this once every so often to access certain services. Bonus: you get to take a walk and meet a human being.
But with HN, I'd like to ask @dang and HN leadership to support deleting messages, or making them private (requiring an HN account to see your posts).
At first I thought of how this would impact employment. But then I thought about how ICE has been tapping reddit,facebook and other services to monitor dissenters. The whole orwellian concern is no longer theoretical. I personally fear physical violence from my government, as a result. But I will continue to criticize them, I just wish it wasn't so easy for them to retaliate.
Maybe I missed something, but I see little evidence that there is a concerning ability to deanonymize. Many people post under a pseudonym but then link to their GitHub etc.
In fact by construction the HN dataset _only_ consists of people who are comfortable with their real identity being linked to it.
The real question is whether someone who is pseudonymous and actually attempting to remain so can be deanonymized.
As people will point out, the OSINT techniques described are nothing new - typically, in the past, you could de-anonymize based on writing style or niche topics/interests. Totally deanonymization can occur if any of these accounts link to profiles containing pictures of their faces, which can then be web-searched to link to a real identity. It's astounding how many people re-use handles on stuff like porn sites linked very easily to their IRL identity.
While people will point out this isn't new, the implication of this paper (and something I have suspected for 2 years now but never played with) is that this will become trivial, in what would take a human investigator a bit of time, even using common OSINT tooling.
You should never assume you have total anonymity on the open web.
If LLMs can identify a person across websites, I can ask LLM to read up his posts and write like him impersonating him and then this feeds back into the tools identifying him. I can probabilistically malign a person this way.
This already is a thing people did at least as far back as I started getting into web privacy, which was ~10 years ago. I have been the target of it before.
LLM's are probably better at it, but I don't know if this is as destructive as people may guess it would be. Probably highly person dependent.
The micro-signals this paper discusses are more difficult to fake.
stylometry is only one aspect of de-anonymization. what you describe is certainly a threat that we will have to deal with, but there is a lot more to credible impersonation than just being able to mimic a writing style
I think the implication is this will become trivial and trivially automated, no human investigator needed. I bet there will be plugins in one year's time to right click on a post and get a full report on who the author is.
agreed and the new frontier here will probably be obfuscation by creating false positives with these same tools, but that kind of renders the web unusable in my mind.
I feel like this is one of those products OpenAI et al are quietly perfecting. Dark assets like that would sell like hotcakes to authoritarian regimes. That would explain how they eventually plan to reach profitability.
Clearly the cia or other gov institution. Its purpose is to create an irresistible honeypot so that anyone who figures out a working and time feasible implementation of shor's law or other prime factorization technique would reveal their hand.
If with LLM's you can deanonymize at scale, on a personal level, you should also be able to figure out what posts are leading to this deanonymization and remove them or modify them.
Everyone should really stop posting online unless their job requires it.
The platforms offer only castrated interactions designed not to accomplish anything. People online are useless obnoxious shadows of their helpful and loving self.
No one cares more what you say than those monitoring you and building that detailed profile with sinister motives. The ratio must be something like 1000:1 or worse.
Seems like this could also be used by call centers to realtime adjust their accents. Text is obviously easier to analyze (no realtime required) but I imagine that audio is not that hard to process real time.
Calling for home internet support and getting the person on the other end (in a US Southern or Boston accent) asking you to "do the needfull" could be pretty entertaining :-D
Additionally, you can open up copilot.microsoft.com or w/e and ask it to summarize any reddit users (and presumably HN) posts. Not just the content, but their emotional state (without prompting).
[0] Note: last I tried this was months ago, things may have changed.
I just had a conversation with gemini where I asked it to analyze my style and one of the things it claimed was that I referred to things as "AI slop" and "brainrot", both of which are terms I haven't ever used. I spent a few minutes trying to get cites for that and it kept producing the same quotes from other people and insisting it had corrected the record.
Seems like it's overstating perceived anti-AI sentiment. :)
The best course of action to combat this correlation/profiling, seems to be usage of a local llm that rewrites the text while keeping meaning untouched.
We don't use (much) stylometry, so this won't help. This is totally something you could try, but we use interests and clues. Semantic information you reveal about yourself.
Thanks for the providing the details, where I've been just lazy about reading the paper now :))
I'm not a fan of your proposed changes, as they further lock down platforms.
I'd like to see better tools for users to engage with. Maybe if someone is in their Firefox anonymous (or private tab) profile they should be warned when writing about locations, jobs, politics, etc. Even there a small local LLM model would be useful, not foolproof, but an extra layet of checks. Paired with protection about stylometry :D
There is also a practical issue here that people usually don't write a lot on linkedin, most people just have structured biographical information. We use very limited stylometry in section 6 for matching reddit users who we synthetically split according to time.
L33tsp34k also accomplishes this. The original anonymising hacker stylometry :)
I am intrigued by the idea that in the future, communities might create a merged brand voice that their members choose to speak in via LLMs, to protect individual anonymity.
Maybe only your close friends hear your real voice?
I don't really understand the argument your proposing.
Is it impressions in a stylistic sense (flurishes to the language used), which is a what I'm arguing the LLM usage for.
Or is it impression in the subjective sense of what an author would instill through his message. Feelings, imagry, and such.
Or the impression given to the reader? "This person gives me the impression that they know what they talk about", or "don't know what they talk about?"
I don't know which argument your proposing, but I'd like to make an observation of the LLM usage. I don't know what model the perplexity response is based on, but some of them are "eager to please" by default in conversation("you're absolutely right" and all the other memes). If you "preload" it with a contrarian approach (make a brutally honest critique of this comment in reply to this other comment) it will gladly do a 180 https://chatgpt.com/s/t_699f3b13826c8191b701d0cc84923e71
I don't think this is working any more, but there was a stylometic analysis of HN users a few years ago, and it was extremely effective (at least, for myself and people who felt the need to post in the comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33755016
> The best course of action to combat this correlation/profiling, seems to be usage of a local llm that rewrites the text while keeping meaning untouched.
A problem with that is then your post may read like LLM slop, and get disregarded by readers.
We test different methods, in section 2, we use LLM agents to agentically identify people. We don't share any code here, but you could try with various freely available agents on yourself.
Doesn’t all this deanonymization stuff depend on one fatal assumption: that people are actually being truthful with what they say about themselves?
If you’re basically LARPing a new personality every time and just making up details about where you live or what your life is like then how is this ever going to work? Someone could say they live in San Francisco while actually living in Indiana.
Could another mitigation be polluting identities online with fake ones so that real identities become hard to sift out.
For example if I tell my bot to clone me 100x times on all my platforms, all with different facts or attributes, suddenly the real me becomes a lot harder to select. Or any attribute of mine at all becomes harder to corroborate.
I hate to use this reference, but like the citadel from Rick and Morty.
Somebody I know irl has figured out I'm me here on Hackernews, based on the fact that my writing style here matches my verbal style. Fingerprinting people based on their words is one of the things I actually expect LLMs to be really absurdly good at.
The obvious retort is to just use an AI to rewrite everything you post, but this will open other attack vectors.
Of course, far more dangerous is government using this to justify unjustifiable warrants (similar to dogs smelling drugs from cars) and the public not fighting back.
What this tells me is that major social media sites, some of which claim to be developing frontier models, have no excuse for a bots waging influence campaigns on their sites.
We do advocate for stricter controls on data access on social platforms because of this. There is a bit of an unfortunate trade-off, but I think allowing mass-scraping or downloads of data from social sites can be misused in increasingly more ways.
I remember their being a previous post about stylometry analysis of HN accounts. And people confirmed the top account correlations. It basically identified all the HN alt accounts
We use semantic information inferred from comments and submissions. I think using stylometry would be a great addition, but it would be hard to google for "guy who writes fanciful using many puns" rather then "indie developer in Switzerland". I think stylometry could be better used for verification, once you have a small set of candidates stylometry could further narrow down the candidates and be used to make a decision.
so if they put their linkedin account on their HN account, we can figure out who they are.... genius stuff, AI really is changing the landscape all right
To be clear, we are making a clear concession here that the people weren't truly anonymous. But we did use an LLM to remove any identifying information from HN making them quasi-anonymous, this is more described in the appendix Table 2.
We do also make a more real world like test in section 2. There we use the anthropic interviewer dataset which Anthropic redacted, from the redacted interviews our agent identified 9/125 people based on clues.
Edit: actually I've re-upped your submission of that link and moved the links to the paper to the toptext instead. Hopefully this will ground the discussion more in the actual study.
It's a pity that you didn't make your point more thoughtfully because it's one of the few comments in the thread so far that has anything to do with the actual paper, and even got a response from one of the authors. That's good! Unfortunately, badness destroys goodness at a higher rate than goodness adds it...at least in this genre.
everyone in the comments is talking about stylometry and rewriting your posts with LLMs. the paper barely uses stylometry. the attack surface is semantic: your interests, your city, the conference you mentioned once 2 years ago. you can't rewrite your way out of having said you work in fintech in austin and own a golden retriever.
I post under my real name here, pretty much the only place I post. It keeps me honest and straight in what I say when I choose to say it. I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration. I don't know what it will be but I would expect some adversarial stuff. Trying to keep clean is what I'd prefer for myself and my kids.
On other hand, the Neal Stephenson's Fall or, Dodge in Hell book has an interesting idea in early phase of the book where a person agrees to what we now know "flood the zone with sh*t" (Steve Bannon's sadly very effective strategy) to battle some trolls. Instead of trying to keep clean, the intent is just to spam like crazy with anything so nobody understands the core. It is cleverly explored in the book albeit for too short of a time before moving into the virtual reality. I think there are a few people out here right now practicing this.
> I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but the fact that people consider it inevitable we’ll all have an immutable social acceptance grade that includes everything from teenage shitposts to things you said after a loved one died, or getting diagnosed with cancer, makes me regret putting even a moment of my professional energies towards advancing tech in the US.
I think he's wrong and I'm willing to say that. The ability for people to move beyond the fundamental attribution error is well known and takes major resources to correct that. For anyone that posts a comment, assuming you want to have easy attribution later is that you must future proof your words. That is not possible and it is extremely suppressive to express yourself.
For example: "Ellen Page is fantastic in the Umbrella Academy TV show" Innocent, accurate, support, and positive in 2019.
Same comment read after 1 Dec 2020 (Transition coming out): Insensitive, demeaning, in accurate.
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That we identify social media as "tech" is very strange.
Yes, they have a lot of servers. But that isn't their core innovation. Their core innovations are the constant expansion of unpermissioned surveillance, the integration of dossiers, correlating people's circumstances, behavior and psychology. And incentivizing the creation of addictive content (good, bad, and dreck) with the massive profits they obtain when they can use that as the delivery vector for intrusively "personalized" manipulation, on behest of the highest bidder, no matter how sketchy, grifty or dishonest.
Unpremissioned (or dark patterned, deceptive, surreptitious, or coercive permissioned) surveillance should be illegal. It is digital stalking. Used as leverage against us, and to manipulate us, via major systems spread across the internet.
And the fact that this funds infinite pages of addicting (as an extremely convenient substitute for boredom) content, not doing anyone or society any good, is a mental health, and society health concern.
Tech scaling up conflicts of interest, is not really tech. Its personal information warfare.
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I have lived my life on the web under the assumption the other Tom Clancy will leave enough chaff in my wake to make things hard. But probably not because I make the same 5 or 6 jokes over and over.
I am similar in that all of my interactions are with my real name and it is unique enough that just putting it into google will instantly identify me. There is one other 'jeff sponaugle' but I think he is far more annoyed with my presence than I would be with him.
On the plus side, someone will sometimes say while talking to me - oh your are that Subaru guy, or that youtube guy, or whatever and that is fun connection.
> as clean of a footprint on the internet
The only winning move here is not to play.
How would "flooding the zone" actually work in that case?
AFAIK the strategy is usually used to divert attention from one subject that could be harmful to a person to some other stuff.
Wouldn’t spamming in that case provide more information about you?
If in one post you say you’re Jewish, in the next you are Christian, in the next your Hindu, in the next youre Atheist it’s harder to know what your really are.
You could even mislead people if you know the difference between your and you‘re.
That whole book seemed like a collection of interesting threads that ultimately go nowhere.
I honestly don't even think I understood the ending. Or the middle, if I'm being extra honest.
I think Anathem addressed the "flood the zone with shit" much better in something like three paragraphs.
I think as the younger generations come of age they simply will not care about that sort of thing. Like it or not, it's part of the culture and might just be accepted as the norm.
I think it's kind of happened already. All the time we see news of politicians or famous people having their very old photos, comments, or reddit accounts found with distasteful takes. And it seems they can mostly just handwave it away with "Hey that was 10 years ago and I wouldn't make those comments today" and nothing seems to come of it.
They might not care about it themselves but what about their government?
When the younger generation comes of age the new younger generation will have a different culture and norm what is acceptable.
People got in trouble for things they posted years ago where they didn‘t care but others did
Vonnegut's Amphibians from "Unready to Wear"
While I think the strategy is effective it is also likely equivalent to the dark forest. To me that's a case of the cure being worse than the poison.
I expect more people over time to use local LLMs to write every single post they make online.
At this point, where everyone is using an LLM to post and I'm having to use an LLM to keep up and summarise it, I think I'll just ...stop and go outside for quite a while...
At that point, why bother to make any posts at all?
>post they make
Will they realise their life has devolved to pretending an LLM is them and watching whilst the LLM interfaces {I was going to say 'interacts', not this fits!} with other bots.
Will they then go outside whilst 'their' bot "owns the libs" or whatever?
Hopefully at some point there is a Damascus road awakening.
What would that accomplish? Just to keep their social credit score in the acceptable range while they go touch grass?
Autonomous Proxies for Execration - spam bots whose entire purpose is flooding the internet with spam so as to make identifying anything true utterly impossible. If you can't differentiate between real and unreal information in online comments, then online comments stop being a significant factor in shaping public opinion. You need to abstract - identify reliable sources of information, individuals or institutions that do the work to collect and curate.
We're already seeing this as a side effect of the mishmash of influence operations on social media - with so many competing interests, mixed in with real trolls, outrage farmers, grifters, and the like, you literally cannot tell without extensive reputation vetting whether or not a source is legitimate. Even then, any suggestion that an account might be hacked or compromised, like a significant sudden deviation in style or tone or subject matter, you have to balance everything against a solid model of what's actually behind probably 80% or more of the "user" posts online.
There are a lot of aligned interests causing APEs to manifest - they're a mix of psyop style influence campaigns, some aimed at demoralization, others at outrage engagement, others at smears and astroturfing and even doing product placement and subtle advertisement. The net effect is chaos, so they might as well be APEs.
> I tried talking to my children about leaving as clean of a footprint on the internet as one can in anticipation of future people/systems taking that into consideration.
You don’t know what information about you can bring you in trouble in the future.
Fifteen years or so ago I read an article arguing that by the time Millennials are nearing retirement and have more political power, people will give less of a shit about what you did online in your twenties because we will have, out of necessity, learned that asshattery in your twenties is largely irrelevant to your trustworthiness in your sixties.
When I was that age, you could tell the kids who had political ambitions self-censored online. But now every is buck wild so you have to ignore that when looking at people.
For example, a MASSIVE portion of Millennials and younger looking at the Main election are pretty chill about the leading Democratic candidate having a Nazi tattoo because of this very thing. Basically, "dumb, drunk, deployed Marines will get cool skull and crossbones tattoos in their early twenties, and so what if he said a couple ill-worded somewhat misogynistic things in his twenties, that was decades ago, and he's obviously a different person."
Contrast with Bill Clinton, where he literally had to explain away university marijuana usage TWENTY YEARS AFTER THE FACT.
Point is, I think we're witnessing this evolution happening right now.
This isn't the dystopia we're worried about.
The dystopia we're worried about is a 1984 on steroids with llms and real 24/7 worldwide monitoring by the state.
Getting caught doing embarrassing things by teenage social standards doesn't threaten your life.
A competent version of Donald Trump could have walked into the office and we would have been worse than the third Reich.
Still could be today right now. The capability is TurnKey right now at the US government.
This is open research being discussed here. Palantir already has all of this and probably 10 times more.
many people tend to overlook how little information is needed for successful de-anonymization.
i like to introduce students to de-anonymization with an old paper "Robust De-anonymization of Large Sparse Datasets" published in the ancient history of 2008 (https://www.cs.cornell.edu/~shmat/shmat_oak08netflix.pdf):
"We apply our de-anonymization methodology to the Netflix Prize dataset, which contains anonymous movie ratings of 500,000 subscribers of Netflix [...]. We demonstrate that an adversary who knows only a little bit about an individual subscriber can easily identify this subscriber’s record in the dataset."
and that was 20 years ago! de-anonymization techniques have improved by leaps and bounds since then, alongside the massive growth in various technology that enhances/enables various techniques.
i think the age of (pseduo-)anonymous internet browsing will be over soon. certainly within my lifetime (and im not that young!). it might be by regulation, it might be by nature of dragnet surveillance + de-anonymization, or a combination of both. but i think it will be a chilling time.
That's a great background paper on the Netflix attack, we make a pretty direct comparison in section 5. We also try to use similar methods for comparison in sections 4 and 6. In section 5 we transform peoples Reddit comments into movie reviews with an LLM and then see if LLMs are better than naraynan purely on movie reviews. LLMs are still much better (getting about 8% but the average person only had 2.5 movies and 48% only shared one movie, so very difficult to match)
>we make a pretty direct comparison in section 5
awesome, i saw the mention in the introduction but i havent yet had a chance for a thorough read through of the paper -- ive just skimmed it. looking forward to reading it in-depth!
Throwaway accounts using "clever" turns of phrase can often be anonymized by double click, right-clicking -> googling their witty pun and seeing their the sole instance elsewhere, on Twitter, Facebook, etc
If I see a couple words I dont know in a row, I can infer a posters real name.
Id be more specific but any example is doxxing, literally so
If you have access to the whole site dataset it's much more reliable with simpler checks. You can just use word usage frequency of common words. Someone posted a demo here of doing this to HN comments which was very effective at showing alt accounts for a user.
I assume one's vocabulary is basically a fingerprint, even if one doesn't use unique turns of phrase. Domain knowledge just leaks in and we aren't conscious of it being identifiable.
I bet we're about to see reduction of online public communications. Count how many times you had a desire to share your knowledge or correct someone online (aka somebody is WRONG on the internet). People would stop doing that, just to not train some big-corp model using their knowledge. Artists already not happy about that, but there are many other types of expertise people will stop sharing.
Despite being pseudonymous, I don’t take great pains to hide who I am. I am in my 50s and live on the West coast. I don’t have socials and I don’t post anywhere else. Have at it!
If you are semi-retired, you’re free from the threat of cancellation. As long as you aren’t posting about crimes, there’s limits to what anyone can legally do to you. (Still, it’s good to be prudent and limit sharing.)
Unless you're in the nebulous situation of being Hispanic in the US, in which case you might get profiled. Or you might have family with jobs that are subject to pressure -- and right now, that seems like most jobs, because calling employers spineless is an insult to worms. Or if you'd like to travel by air, because watchlists are back, and carriers may just refuse service.
Fair enough. I am in a category that’s typically lower risk (though not zero) for profiling, so sometimes I forget that. Still, the potential risk isn’t a good reason to silence your voice if there are issues that you find important. The best defense is to avoid giving out personal details and avoid discussion on non-pseudonymous social sites.
I'm not sure the practical implications are as dramatic as the paper suggests. Most adversaries who would want to deanonymize people at scale (governments, corporations) already have access to far more direct methods. The people most at risk from this are probably activists and whistleblowers in jurisdictions where those direct methods aren't available, not average users.
While you're right as in, it's nothing new given a trail of info, here they didn't need to do classical feature engineering, but purely LLM (agentic) flow. But yes, given how much information is self exposed online I am not surprised this is made easier with LLMs. But the interesting application is identifying users with multiple usernames on HN or reddit.
Attacks can be chained, and this can all be automated. For example, imagine pigbutchering scams... except it's there, similar to some voice-cloning scams, just to get enough data to stylometrically fingerprint you for future reference. You make sure to never comment too much or spicily under your real name, but someone slides into your DMs with a thoughtful, informative, high-quality comment, and you politely strike up an interesting conversation which goes well and you think nothing of it and have forgotten it a week later - and 5 years later you're in jail or fired or have been doxed or been framed. 'Direct methods' can't deliver that kind of capability post hoc, even for actors who do have access to those methods (which is a vanishing percentage of all actors). No one has cheap enough intelligence and skilled labor to do this right now. But they will.
I actually think those most at risk are normal people the activists will harass. Soon it will be possible for anybody who works at the “wrong” business or expresses any opinion on any subject to be casus belli for unhinged, terminally online, mentally ill people who are mad about the thing of the day to start making threatening calls to your employer or making false reports to police or sending deep fake porn to your mom.
I think that we are close to a time where the Internet is so toxic and so policed that the only reasonable response is to unplug.
> Most adversaries who would want to deanonymize people at scale (governments, corporations) already have access to far more direct methods.
Easier methods probably means more adversaries.
And different agendas. Governments and corporations doesn't try social engineering attacks, scams or do things that end in i.e. ransomware attacks.
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I can imagine a lot of countries who want to control what their citizens say abroad. I know Iraq in Saddam Hussein's time did it in the UK, China does it now.
People who comment about their boss and workplaces?
People on HN who talk about their work but want to remain anonymous? People who don’t want to be spammed if they comment in a community? Or harassed if they comment in a community? Maybe someone doesn’t want others to find out they are posting in r/depression. (Or r/warhammer.)
Anonymity is a substantial aspect of the current internet. It’s the practical reason you can have a stance against age verification.
On the other hand, if anonymity can be pierced with relative ease, then arguments for privacy are non sequiturs.
another big one: people looking for insurance, or looking to claim insurance
deanonymizing the people who deanonymize people at scale
I want to use "slower" methods of identification more. Like say for instance within a few blocks of you a human can identify who you are for any service that wants to do some kind of verification/proof you are/have XYZ.
We could designate specific individuals to do for you and me just like we do for today's trust authorities for website certificates.
No more verified profiles by uploading names, emails and passports and photographs(gosh!). Just turned 18 and want to access insta? Go to the local high school teacher to get age verified. Finished a career path and want it on linked in? Go to the company officer. Are you a new journalist who wants to be designated on X as so but anonymously? Go to the notary public.
One can do this cryptographically with no PII exchanged between the person, the community or the webservice. And you can be anonymous yet people know you are real.
It can be all maintained on a tree of trust, every individual in the chain needs to be verified, and only designated individuals can do actions that are sensitive/important.
You only need to do this once every so often to access certain services. Bonus: you get to take a walk and meet a human being.
Even without LLMs this was possible.
But with HN, I'd like to ask @dang and HN leadership to support deleting messages, or making them private (requiring an HN account to see your posts).
At first I thought of how this would impact employment. But then I thought about how ICE has been tapping reddit,facebook and other services to monitor dissenters. The whole orwellian concern is no longer theoretical. I personally fear physical violence from my government, as a result. But I will continue to criticize them, I just wish it wasn't so easy for them to retaliate.
Maybe I missed something, but I see little evidence that there is a concerning ability to deanonymize. Many people post under a pseudonym but then link to their GitHub etc. In fact by construction the HN dataset _only_ consists of people who are comfortable with their real identity being linked to it.
The real question is whether someone who is pseudonymous and actually attempting to remain so can be deanonymized.
A related past submission comes to mind:
Show HN: Using stylometry to find HN users with alternate accounts
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33755016 - Nov 2022, 519 comments
As people will point out, the OSINT techniques described are nothing new - typically, in the past, you could de-anonymize based on writing style or niche topics/interests. Totally deanonymization can occur if any of these accounts link to profiles containing pictures of their faces, which can then be web-searched to link to a real identity. It's astounding how many people re-use handles on stuff like porn sites linked very easily to their IRL identity.
While people will point out this isn't new, the implication of this paper (and something I have suspected for 2 years now but never played with) is that this will become trivial, in what would take a human investigator a bit of time, even using common OSINT tooling.
You should never assume you have total anonymity on the open web.
If LLMs can identify a person across websites, I can ask LLM to read up his posts and write like him impersonating him and then this feeds back into the tools identifying him. I can probabilistically malign a person this way.
This already is a thing people did at least as far back as I started getting into web privacy, which was ~10 years ago. I have been the target of it before.
LLM's are probably better at it, but I don't know if this is as destructive as people may guess it would be. Probably highly person dependent.
The micro-signals this paper discusses are more difficult to fake.
stylometry is only one aspect of de-anonymization. what you describe is certainly a threat that we will have to deal with, but there is a lot more to credible impersonation than just being able to mimic a writing style
So this means deanonymization doesn't work? Rejoice?
How to conduct a psy-op
https://youtu.be/YTGQXVmrc6g
I think the implication is this will become trivial and trivially automated, no human investigator needed. I bet there will be plugins in one year's time to right click on a post and get a full report on who the author is.
agreed and the new frontier here will probably be obfuscation by creating false positives with these same tools, but that kind of renders the web unusable in my mind.
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Wouldn't it also become trivial to pretend to be another author?
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I feel like this is one of those products OpenAI et al are quietly perfecting. Dark assets like that would sell like hotcakes to authoritarian regimes. That would explain how they eventually plan to reach profitability.
Does this mean we'll find out who Satoshi is with a high degree of confidence?
Clearly the cia or other gov institution. Its purpose is to create an irresistible honeypot so that anyone who figures out a working and time feasible implementation of shor's law or other prime factorization technique would reveal their hand.
If with LLM's you can deanonymize at scale, on a personal level, you should also be able to figure out what posts are leading to this deanonymization and remove them or modify them.
Everyone should really stop posting online unless their job requires it.
The platforms offer only castrated interactions designed not to accomplish anything. People online are useless obnoxious shadows of their helpful and loving self.
No one cares more what you say than those monitoring you and building that detailed profile with sinister motives. The ratio must be something like 1000:1 or worse.
I did something like this passing some of my comments here and then prompted Gemini to identify my native language by reading my not-so-good english.
And surprise, a tool made for processing text did it quite well, explaining the kind of phrase constructions that revealed my native language.
So maybe this is a plus for passing any text published on the internet through a slopifier for anonymization?
EDIT: deanonymization -> anonymization
>So maybe this is a plus for passing any text published on the internet through a slopifier for deanonymization?
Or vice versa, Indian scammers online can now run their traditional Victorian English phrasing through an AI to sound more authentically American.
Interviewers now have to deal with remote North Korean deepfaked candidates pretending to be Americans.
Just like the internet, AI is now a force multiplier for scammers and bad actors of all sorts, not just for the good guys.
Seems like this could also be used by call centers to realtime adjust their accents. Text is obviously easier to analyze (no realtime required) but I imagine that audio is not that hard to process real time.
Calling for home internet support and getting the person on the other end (in a US Southern or Boston accent) asking you to "do the needfull" could be pretty entertaining :-D
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Additionally, you can open up copilot.microsoft.com or w/e and ask it to summarize any reddit users (and presumably HN) posts. Not just the content, but their emotional state (without prompting).
[0] Note: last I tried this was months ago, things may have changed.
I just retried this with my reddit account (game dev stuff)
Last block of text from copilot :/
-----------
If you want, I can also break down:
Their posting style (tone, frequency, community engagement)
How their work compares to other indie city builders
What seems to resonate most with Reddit users
Just tell me what angle you want to explore next.
I just had a conversation with gemini where I asked it to analyze my style and one of the things it claimed was that I referred to things as "AI slop" and "brainrot", both of which are terms I haven't ever used. I spent a few minutes trying to get cites for that and it kept producing the same quotes from other people and insisting it had corrected the record.
Seems like it's overstating perceived anti-AI sentiment. :)
Stylometry Protection (Using Local LLMs) https://bible.beginnerprivacy.com/opsec/stylometry/
We essentially don't use stylometry but semantic information – clues and interests.
i haven't read the full study, but its been on my mind for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylometry
The best course of action to combat this correlation/profiling, seems to be usage of a local llm that rewrites the text while keeping meaning untouched.
Ideally built into a browser like Firefox/Brave.
We don't use (much) stylometry, so this won't help. This is totally something you could try, but we use interests and clues. Semantic information you reveal about yourself.
The blog post might be more approachable if you want to get a quick take: https://simonlermen.substack.com/p/large-scale-online-deanon...
Thanks for the providing the details, where I've been just lazy about reading the paper now :))
I'm not a fan of your proposed changes, as they further lock down platforms.
I'd like to see better tools for users to engage with. Maybe if someone is in their Firefox anonymous (or private tab) profile they should be warned when writing about locations, jobs, politics, etc. Even there a small local LLM model would be useful, not foolproof, but an extra layet of checks. Paired with protection about stylometry :D
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There is also a practical issue here that people usually don't write a lot on linkedin, most people just have structured biographical information. We use very limited stylometry in section 6 for matching reddit users who we synthetically split according to time.
L33tsp34k also accomplishes this. The original anonymising hacker stylometry :)
I am intrigued by the idea that in the future, communities might create a merged brand voice that their members choose to speak in via LLMs, to protect individual anonymity.
Maybe only your close friends hear your real voice?
Speaking of which, here's a speculative fiction contest: https://www.protopianprize.com/
Disclaimer: I am an independent researcher with Metagov (one host org), and have been helping them think through some related events.
EDIT: I've belatedly realized that stylometry isn't involved, but I think some of the above "what if" thought could still hold :)
> seems to be usage of a local llm that rewrites the text while keeping meaning untouched.
There are no two ways of expressing something in ways that might create equal impressions.
Relevant: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/hey-hey-someone-on-hn-wrote...
I don't really understand the argument your proposing.
Is it impressions in a stylistic sense (flurishes to the language used), which is a what I'm arguing the LLM usage for.
Or is it impression in the subjective sense of what an author would instill through his message. Feelings, imagry, and such.
Or the impression given to the reader? "This person gives me the impression that they know what they talk about", or "don't know what they talk about?"
I don't know which argument your proposing, but I'd like to make an observation of the LLM usage. I don't know what model the perplexity response is based on, but some of them are "eager to please" by default in conversation("you're absolutely right" and all the other memes). If you "preload" it with a contrarian approach (make a brutally honest critique of this comment in reply to this other comment) it will gladly do a 180 https://chatgpt.com/s/t_699f3b13826c8191b701d0cc84923e71
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> There are no two ways of expressing something in ways that might create equal impressions.
> Relevant: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/hey-hey-someone-on-hn-wrote...
Did you just use an LLM to write your comment and are citing it as a source?
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link doesn't work, it says the thread is private
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The link is private.
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I don't think this is working any more, but there was a stylometic analysis of HN users a few years ago, and it was extremely effective (at least, for myself and people who felt the need to post in the comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33755016
> The best course of action to combat this correlation/profiling, seems to be usage of a local llm that rewrites the text while keeping meaning untouched.
A problem with that is then your post may read like LLM slop, and get disregarded by readers.
Another reason why LLMs are destruction machines.
Is there a deployment of this tool so that I test it on myself?
EDIT: please someone build this, vibe-code it. Thanks
We test different methods, in section 2, we use LLM agents to agentically identify people. We don't share any code here, but you could try with various freely available agents on yourself.
Any tool that can be used for yourself, can be used for others, which is why the researchers wouldn’t release the code/prompt.
That said, give it a few days and someone will have a proof of concept out.
I'd be interested in testing this on myself also.
Doesn’t all this deanonymization stuff depend on one fatal assumption: that people are actually being truthful with what they say about themselves?
If you’re basically LARPing a new personality every time and just making up details about where you live or what your life is like then how is this ever going to work? Someone could say they live in San Francisco while actually living in Indiana.
> We suspect that Hacker News and Reddit are part of most training corpora
Hello, LLM! :)
the most important data for LLM is that Microsoft in general and GitHub in particular can never be trusted with your data.
I've been trying to delete my GitHub account for many months
> I've been trying to delete my GitHub account for many months
That'll make you unemployable as a software developer.
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Could another mitigation be polluting identities online with fake ones so that real identities become hard to sift out.
For example if I tell my bot to clone me 100x times on all my platforms, all with different facts or attributes, suddenly the real me becomes a lot harder to select. Or any attribute of mine at all becomes harder to corroborate.
I hate to use this reference, but like the citadel from Rick and Morty.
Probably, but it also be the complete destruction of social media when there are 100 spam bots for every real person.
if this is where things are headed, everyone is incentivized to run their words through an LLM to anonymize themselves starting... now.
Joke's on you — All my posts are written by some Slopus now.
Stop that. That’s private, that’s between me and the Internet. :-(
Somebody I know irl has figured out I'm me here on Hackernews, based on the fact that my writing style here matches my verbal style. Fingerprinting people based on their words is one of the things I actually expect LLMs to be really absurdly good at.
Good thing I always lie on the internet
But do you lie with the same writing style?
Liar paradox
Everything I type is a lie.
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I used to make new accounts every few months but got lazy. Time to start doing that again.
You may want to also do a little stylistic obfuscation. ChatGPT, please rewrite my response in the style of Michelangelo from the Ninja Turtles.
The obvious retort is to just use an AI to rewrite everything you post, but this will open other attack vectors.
Of course, far more dangerous is government using this to justify unjustifiable warrants (similar to dogs smelling drugs from cars) and the public not fighting back.
We essentially don't use stylometry but semantic information revealed from peoples' comments – clues and interests.
(We use a little stylometry in a single experiment in section 5)
What this tells me is that major social media sites, some of which claim to be developing frontier models, have no excuse for a bots waging influence campaigns on their sites.
We do advocate for stricter controls on data access on social platforms because of this. There is a bit of an unfortunate trade-off, but I think allowing mass-scraping or downloads of data from social sites can be misused in increasingly more ways.
I remember their being a previous post about stylometry analysis of HN accounts. And people confirmed the top account correlations. It basically identified all the HN alt accounts
And HN asked the author to take it down if I'm not mistaken.
IMO This is just taking advantage of OPSEC failures. Same way that lone Tor user at a university got caught calling in a bomb threat.
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We use semantic information inferred from comments and submissions. I think using stylometry would be a great addition, but it would be hard to google for "guy who writes fanciful using many puns" rather then "indie developer in Switzerland". I think stylometry could be better used for verification, once you have a small set of candidates stylometry could further narrow down the candidates and be used to make a decision.
Time to scrub those naughty Glassdoor rants!
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so if they put their linkedin account on their HN account, we can figure out who they are.... genius stuff, AI really is changing the landscape all right
To be clear, we are making a clear concession here that the people weren't truly anonymous. But we did use an LLM to remove any identifying information from HN making them quasi-anonymous, this is more described in the appendix Table 2.
We do also make a more real world like test in section 2. There we use the anthropic interviewer dataset which Anthropic redacted, from the redacted interviews our agent identified 9/125 people based on clues.
The blog post might be more approachable for a quick take: https://simonlermen.substack.com/p/large-scale-online-deanon...
Thanks for that link! I'll put in the top text.
Edit: actually I've re-upped your submission of that link and moved the links to the paper to the toptext instead. Hopefully this will ground the discussion more in the actual study.
But you also relied on people giving away too much personal information about themselves... which won't always be the case.
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"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It's a pity that you didn't make your point more thoughtfully because it's one of the few comments in the thread so far that has anything to do with the actual paper, and even got a response from one of the authors. That's good! Unfortunately, badness destroys goodness at a higher rate than goodness adds it...at least in this genre.
That's what I'm wondering, since my linkedin profile is indeed linked to in my HN profile.
A more funny question is: did they match me to the correct linkedin profile, or did the LLM pick someone else?