Comment by 0xy
18 hours ago
I think it's more likely that Microsoft is vibe coding slop garbage to replace their core apps that were literally better.
Windows 10 explorer.exe is 100x faster than Windows 11 explorer, it's not even close.
It also signals the death knell for Windows native apps. Microsoft can't make them anymore. It won't be long until even Excel is a Electron sloplication.
> Windows 10 explorer.exe is 100x faster than Windows 11 explorer, it's not even close.
I have a hard time believing this. I'm pretty sensitive to performance losses and I haven't noticed any difference between those. It wouldn't make sense either, given they should both host the same shell icon views. Are you sure the difference you're seeing is in explorer.exe? As opposed to something else, like a new shell extension or a new filesystem filter driver on Windows 11?
It is certainly perceptibly slow. Carried out a test on my 12 year old PC running Win-10 vs a new HP Win11 laptop of my friend which he bought in a hurry before price increases. Opened a directory of several thousand files with nested folders - much slower at navigation. Much slower at opening right-click menus. Much slower at pretty much everything.
M$ has now introduced web-latency into the desktop along with their adoption of web-tech into the OS. You gotta get used to staring at that spinning blue circle, counting the many precious moments of your life draining away.
> M$ has now introduced web-latency into the desktop along with their adoption of web-tech into the OS.
So we're back to the woes of Active Desktop on Windows 98. Everything old is new again.
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> As opposed to something else, like a new shell extension or a new filesystem filter driver on Windows 11?
Ultimately, what difference does it make? The file explorer in Windows 10 is much faster than the one in Windows 11, and it's very noticeable. Turn on the old context menus, and try right clicking a file. Instant in Windows 10, visible delay in Windows 11.
I measured once. It uses about 50% more resources and offers less feautures (or at least hides existing feautures). You may not have noticed if you had resources to spare.
It does offer some new features for businesses. Nothing useful for the consumer, and nothing to justify the massive performance loss
The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over ten seconds to open the calculator. It literally is faster to type the calculation I want into a search engine and get the results back over the network.
The new calculator even manages to screw up basic input. The old calculator accepted both commas and periods as decimal separator inputs. It just worked no matter what I typed in. The new calculator has some sort of "clever" localization where my inputs change depending on the language of the operating system. My language uses commas so of course it only accepts those. Infuriating. Hope whoever coded this is enjoying their promotion.
Off-topic, but do you know Mozilla Firefox has a builtin calculator and unit conversion in the URL bar? For my personal use I rather use python and GNU units, but I guess for most users that live in the browser instead of the terminal, this could become their default calculator.
I don't know if you need to restore the urlbar first, before that works.
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One of the first projects I made while learning to code was a calculator.
It wasn't very sophisticated. But it was fast and it handled commas and periods. It wasn't localized, but it could be.
Sad to think that me having a month of coding experience made a better product than MSFT, yet whoever coded the calculator is probably making ten times what I am right now.
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Is that Windows, or the EDR that is hooking every system call and pinning a whole core with analytics?
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Its not faster bereft of context, its just bloated. If you have enough resource to throw at it, its roughly the same. Theres some specific things that can themselves be slower, the Windows 11 Start Menu has had a lot of words written about its new implementation.
That _is_ slower. The fact that it's possible to throw enough resources at it that both "look" the same speed, doesn't change the fact that one of them is 10x slower.
> if you have enough resource to throw at it
An i9 with 128GB RAM isn’t enough resources to open a menu?
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There are a ton of posts and bug reports about the Windows 11 File Explorer being slow. Personally, after a few minutes of use, changing directories can take on the order of 20-30 seconds!
The slowdown appears to be due to XAML Islands, which allow legacy code to use modern MS UI stuff.
https://www.techindeep.com/why-is-windows-explorer-slow-7289...
The best example is probably the new "Outlook", and I put that name in quotes intentionally.
In case anyone is not aware:
20231109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38212453 Windows 11 Update 23H2 is stealing users' IMAP credentials (666 points, 278 comments)
> the new Outlook is a thin wrapper around the cloud version, so the IMAP sync happens in the cloud, not locally
This was one of the most outrageous data grab in the past years. They replaced the completely working simple Mail app, which I used until that point, with this garbage, and I was just lucky that I paid attention, and I stopped for a sec what is that warning which tells you that they grab literally all of your emails.
Btw, just before that I found this page regarding Edge, and this is why I paid more attention to these things: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/microsoft-edge/priva...
That list is way too long for my taste, and it really indicated me that Windows became completely adversarial.
[flagged]
“Diverse”? Wanna expand on that one, buddy? You think you’re being subtle?
It's been so weird to watch over the decades as team sizes, budgets, and timelines have exploded even as we've abandoned once-normal things like native GUI applications as too hard in favor of "more efficient" webshit... even as the aforementioned stuff with growing team sizes, budgets, and timelines have happened.
What's weird is that AI is supposed to make development easy enough that native applications are just as fast to build than web apps
Somehow in this timeline AI can only be used to make things worse and sloppier
>What's weird is that AI is supposed to make development easy enough that native applications are just as fast to build than web apps
The inverse has been happening. AI seems to be best at JS and React, so many projects use this just to have the best results. I think this is the whole reason that Claude Code is actually React that's then mapped onto a terminal.
> make development easy enough that native applications are just as fast to build than web apps
I don't think that was ever not the case. The popular UI toolkits include a WYSIWYG editor where you can pick widgets and just put them where you want them with the mouse. Sure, that might not be what developers like to use, but invoking a widget constructor is not that hard and gets you a lot more functionality out of the box, that you would need to implement in JS.
Cross-platform GUIs is also more of a problem of theory. It used to be a big thing, because the GUIs don't look native to the platform, but that concern has gone out of the window with websites now. Win32 programs run with WINE, which I guess is not desirable for deploying to ordinary users, but I guess the people who write for Win32 generally do not care much about porting their programs outside of MS Windows. GTK+ and Qt both run on MS Windows. TCL/Tk comes built-in with Python and looks native on MS Windows.
Encoding algorithms is not that much different across C-like (Algol-derived) languages. Registering callbacks also looks kind of the same. I guess what makes a real difference is the ubiquity of async in JS, where you would use threads more in native applications.
I think what is an actual difference is the mindset around styling and layout. This is something that you actually need to adapt. CSS is more declarative, much like writing constraints for sizes, because you just write a formula about e.g. size in relation to other sizes. On native toolkits you would need to implement this stuff imperatively, I guess this looks like a real downgrade coming from the web, but it is really just a different mindset. Also when you run on the actual machine you have actual access to the device/viewport characteristics and can adapt based on that, and don't need to write an abstract layout. The other side of the coin is that the default widget packaging mechanism has been grid based while CSS only gained that later.
What I guess is also easier in JS, is just drawing on a canvas. The native UI toolkits want to nudge you into implementing a custom widget which implements all the required functionality of widgets. That results in a way better interface for the user, but when you just want a raster graphic you can click on, it can feel like a huge waste of time.
Since now native toolkits also support CSS, have JS bindings and Webpage targets, a guess the difference blurs.
The engineers running the AI have to still be good.
AI code that isn't properly guided and controlled by an engineer is just as sloppy as the human behind it.
AI is an accelerate for programming, but some developers create horrible code before AI, snd AI won't change that. It just lets them do it faster.
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Software used to be built for users, now it just has to look good as a screenshot.
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> What's weird is that AI is supposed to make development easy enough that native applications are just as fast to build than web apps
Think one step ahead. They will want you to pay them for some LLM "agent" to use the GUI instead. It's not important that GUI is human usable anymore, actually the opposite.
It’s also weird that the productivity increases of AI lead to layoffs instead of hiring. If we can do more with AI why are companies scrambling to maintain the current output? Does leadership lack the vision of what to do with the additional productivity?
If everything is electron then there’s literally no reason to pay for windows since superior OSes can run everything exactly the same