Does this level of detail seem strange to anybody else? Shining such a strong light on OpenAI's moderation/manual review efforts seems like it would draw unwanted attention to the fact that ChatGPT conversations are anything but private, and seems somewhat at odds with their recent outrage about the subpoena for user chats in the NYT case.
Manual reviews of sensitive data are ok as long as their own employees are the reviewers, I suppose?
I thought that was pretty open? Even their more privacy-oriented Zero Data Retention agreement (which isn’t so easy to get on your business account) includes an exception “where needed to comply with law or combat misuse”
that creepy feeling of "being watched" has mostly kept me from taking advantage of any SOTA models, i only dabble in a few local ones.
The level of detail does not seem surprising. they're both charged with maintaining a facade of privacy while eliminating any and all miss-use. Certainly they heavily analyze basically everything given to them.
And generally as a society we've been ok with basically zero privacy as long as the data we send stays inside the company we sent it too. Google reads all your emails? Sure thing, read away, just don't send them to the popo. Apple knows when you're ovulating? no problem, just don't tell Amazon. etc
Same here. My assumption is that anything sent to a hosted model is public information, it will be trained on and it will be collated with your identity. And even if public models have guardrails that prevent that information from being regurgitated as slop, every CEO/owner/investor/government/etc will all have access to the uncensored models that include everything.
If you've ever ran a SaaS business, you know this and you know you can have "God Mode" access to everything, even if you swear up and down that you don't/won't.
The owners of these models aren't your friends, they see you as objects. They want to take as much value as they possibly can from you and will starve you if/when the option appears. That includes selling and sharing whatever data they have on you to the highest bidders, and some of those bidders want scapegoats to parade around as domestic terrorists.
The fact that companies are willing to send their IP and business processes to entities that can easily launder it and out compete them is mind-boggling, as well.
I was in Shanghai recently and while casually testing one of their AI chat bots I typed "What do you think of the situation in Taiwan?".
It started discussing like a Western bot would - "it's complicated, etc. etc." and around 5s it abruptly stopped and regurgitated the same line the CCP uses "... it's an unalienable part of China etc. etc.".
After printing the line, a popup opened and my camera was activated. The app wanted me to submit my information, presumably to decide what to do with me next time I enter China.
1) All the lights and modern buildings cannot hide that China is a creepy authoritarian state underneath.
2) Given the bot started printing the Western consensus first, I bet $10 it was trained by distilling ChatGPT or Gemini.
> After printing the line, a popup opened and my camera was activated. The app wanted me to submit my information, presumably to decide what to do with me next time I enter China.
Was this on your personal device? I'm just wondering how it activated your camera. I would love more details!
If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Detecting the word “Taiwan” has been possible since before most of us were born.
China has more restrictions on what you can say than the U.S. but what you are describing is not reality. Some westerner asking Deepseek about Taiwan is completely uninteresting. Just as the government do not chase people over VPN usage.
China doesn’t try to hide that they are an authoritarian state. They don’t need to. Most people in China are no less happy with their government than westerners are with their governments. Governments reflect culture. And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.
> If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response?
Not recognizing they were outputting wrongthink until after it was being streamed to the user is a known behavior with some Chinese chatbot apps. A quick search found an example of DeepSeek doing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_ce...
I don't think his story is genuine, but it showing the "wrong" answer before correcting itself is known behavior.
My wife grew up in Shanghai, and you'll have to go quite some distance to find someone more critical of the PRC and CCP than she is. And it's with good reason.
She grew up during the cultural revolution, and was largely raised by her grandmother because literally every other person in her extended family was in prison or work camp, not because of anything they had actually done wrong, but for political reasons because the whole family was blacklisted.
And that's not just the old days. Her father died as a direct result of Chinese Covid policy. During the pandemic her cousins still in the country would ask her (on Skype) "is X true?", and largely their perception of what was going on was false. She would exfiltrate encrypted news reports to them - until those started getting blocked. Her dad's estate still has affairs that need to be resolved, but we've decided not to return to China until Xi is gone, as it's just not safe. It doesn't get much airplay, but there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now. It's not worth the risk.
My first trip to China was about 30 years ago, shortly after we got married. And back then, I would have said that you were right. Honestly, it felt like for the average person in their day-to-day-lives, the Chinese were less under the governmental thumb than we are. People from the countryside would bring their produce into the city to sell, or cook dumplings and buns to sell on the side of the street - stuff that in America we'd have to get permits for. It seemed that the oligarchy had an understanding with the people: let us control the big picture, and we'll look the other way for the little things. But Chinese politics is a pendulum swinging very widely. From Tienanmen Square and Tank Man, it had swung quite a bit the other way. But today, it's come back 180-degrees. Xi is really trying for a Cultural Revolution 2.0.
These impressions largely match what I hear from other Chinese immigrants - except for Party members, who tend not to want to talk about it at all. I'm afraid that you've been listening to too much propaganda.
DeepSeek would print all it's mental gymnastics to censor itself in the reasoning phase directly to the user, before shutting down the conversation. Apparantly such an odd move is a thing in China.
>And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.
To the extent that's true, it's because they won't let you see the uyghur reeducation camps.
I ran an anonymized Facebook account for years with thousands of followers that mainly sticks to news and politics.
Once I started criticizing Libs of TikTok, the propaganda arm for this administration, and getting traction with users, my account was locked and now I have to scan my face and ID if I want to use it again.
>Given the bot started printing the Western consensus first, I bet $10 it was trained by distilling ChatGPT or Gemini.
To your point I've seen something similar with Deepseek, generic answers start printing and then, in plain sight, removed and replaced with a non committal message along the lines of "I don't have access to that information."
I'm pretty sure they can just prompt any convo in the background and ask "is this conversation sensitive ?" and the model can answer without this being added to the context of the convo.
One hopes the CIA/Secret service would be willing to provide the human to do the reviewing but sadly I've worked for European telco's and I know better.
The amount of information about everything that people are giving OpenAI is astronomical, information that was previously kept closely guarded is now just freely flowing through foreign servers.
Truly a paradise for american intelligence. Would have expected that the chinese officials be briefed on not using us tech companies, but opsec is hard to teach, and even harder to always follow.
I think one of the reasons why AI companies are valued this high is one can actually inspect what user inputs & outputs are.
It's basically an OSINT siphon.
In this Chinese case, the tokens are leaked at least twice. ChatGPT offers no direct access to the Chinese, they have to use some kind of Openrouter-like service, but the data where also in clear-text during transmission.
> While the US certainly isn't pure, its scale of surveillance intrusion is light compared to China
I assume that for someone to believe this, they either have to believe the U.S. has poorer surveillance capability than China, or, more likely, they consider U.S. surveillance unintrusive and Chinese surveillance intrusive.
If I were doing this sort of thing, I would make certain to ban accounts that were too obvious while leaving ones that are subtle enough, so that the other side has less reason to suspect I am tracking their inputs and feeding them disinformation.
This tells us that we should never share sensitive information with GPT, even if you’ve set it not to use your data for training. Nothing can stop OpenAI from misusing your data.
> “This is what Chinese modern transnational repression looks like,” Ben Nimmo, principal investigator at OpenAI, told reporters ahead of the report’s release. “It’s not just digital. It’s not just about trolling. It’s industrialized. [...]
There's something poetic about OpenAI being asked to comment on mis-use of their slop generator, and their answer is composed entirely of AI slop.
lol everyone claims deepseek and all chinese companies are collecting private information and ban them in western companies. but it is okay being spied by openai :)))
I like DeepSeek because of their pricing, although I'm still evaluating. I wonder if I'll need a VPN in the future to access it though (from EU). Cheap is good, cheap prevails.
The official DeepSeek API is routed through AWS load balancing btw.
> intimidating Chinese dissidents abroad, including by impersonating US immigration officials
I hope those victims of immigration impersonation don't have family within China's borders. AI-enabled impersonation and intimidation are far from the worst of China's crimes [1] against its overseas critics.
China likes to make you an offer you can't refuse [2] [3]: You're saying stuff the Chinese government doesn't like, but you live outside its borders and the secret police can't get at you? You need to come to China and be jailed (or worse). If you don't, your family will be the ones who are jailed (or worse). Or you can unalive yourself, and save the glorious Chinese Communist Party the expense of a bullet.
[1] China would say "the government punishes a criminal's family" is not a crime, it's a perfectly legal implementation of government policy under Chinese law. I respond that the death camps were perfectly legal implementation of government policy under Nazi law, but were still crimes against humanity -- China's actions fall in this category of crimes.
As I understand it: Western societies have a very individualistic view of responsibility. If you didn't commit a crime, you're innocent. Punishing the innocent family members of a criminal is morally abominable.
In the Chinese Communist Party's view, criminal responsibility is collectivist. By their definition, the family members of a criminal share responsibility for the crime regardless of their participation in the criminal acts. "Innocent family members of a criminal" is a logically inconsistent concept in their world view. The family of a criminal is guilty by definition -- being related to a criminal is itself a crime.
i kinda get the impression this was from 2023 and also it is not clear what this dissident did, hard to evaluate whether i should care without knowing that
> “It’s not just digital. It’s not just about trolling. It’s industrialized. It’s about trying to hit critics of the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] with everything, everywhere, all at once.”
This seems to be the source report: https://openai.com/index/disrupting-malicious-ai-uses/ (since it would of course kill CNN, like almost all media outlets, to link to a non-affiliated primary source...)
Does this level of detail seem strange to anybody else? Shining such a strong light on OpenAI's moderation/manual review efforts seems like it would draw unwanted attention to the fact that ChatGPT conversations are anything but private, and seems somewhat at odds with their recent outrage about the subpoena for user chats in the NYT case.
Manual reviews of sensitive data are ok as long as their own employees are the reviewers, I suppose?
From Anthropics recent blog post: https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist...
> By examining request metadata, we were able to trace these accounts to specific researchers at the lab.
> The volume, structure, and focus of the prompts were distinct from normal usage patterns
Clearly some employees of Anthropic personally looked at individual inputs and outputs of their API
I thought that was pretty open? Even their more privacy-oriented Zero Data Retention agreement (which isn’t so easy to get on your business account) includes an exception “where needed to comply with law or combat misuse”
that creepy feeling of "being watched" has mostly kept me from taking advantage of any SOTA models, i only dabble in a few local ones.
The level of detail does not seem surprising. they're both charged with maintaining a facade of privacy while eliminating any and all miss-use. Certainly they heavily analyze basically everything given to them.
And generally as a society we've been ok with basically zero privacy as long as the data we send stays inside the company we sent it too. Google reads all your emails? Sure thing, read away, just don't send them to the popo. Apple knows when you're ovulating? no problem, just don't tell Amazon. etc
Same here. My assumption is that anything sent to a hosted model is public information, it will be trained on and it will be collated with your identity. And even if public models have guardrails that prevent that information from being regurgitated as slop, every CEO/owner/investor/government/etc will all have access to the uncensored models that include everything.
If you've ever ran a SaaS business, you know this and you know you can have "God Mode" access to everything, even if you swear up and down that you don't/won't.
The owners of these models aren't your friends, they see you as objects. They want to take as much value as they possibly can from you and will starve you if/when the option appears. That includes selling and sharing whatever data they have on you to the highest bidders, and some of those bidders want scapegoats to parade around as domestic terrorists.
The fact that companies are willing to send their IP and business processes to entities that can easily launder it and out compete them is mind-boggling, as well.
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The signal founder is doing private llm’s at confer.to
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I use my local models to generate input for the SOTA models, so there is enough noise that the companies don't know what is real or not :)
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This feels very planted. Wouldn't be surprised if this some attempt to look patriotic with the DoW turning up the heat against Anthropic.
given that OpenAI just nabbed the contract, I'd say that's spot on
Yes, it is either a lie or an admission that OpenAI is a global surveillance mechanism.
Alas! My vision of One Fed Per Child hath come to pass!
in the year 2026 is there really anyone out there still who thinks that anything they do online is private on any way?
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Literally could just have someone working at the embassy roleplay on their lunch break in a cafe to generate this evidence.
I was in Shanghai recently and while casually testing one of their AI chat bots I typed "What do you think of the situation in Taiwan?".
It started discussing like a Western bot would - "it's complicated, etc. etc." and around 5s it abruptly stopped and regurgitated the same line the CCP uses "... it's an unalienable part of China etc. etc.".
After printing the line, a popup opened and my camera was activated. The app wanted me to submit my information, presumably to decide what to do with me next time I enter China.
1) All the lights and modern buildings cannot hide that China is a creepy authoritarian state underneath.
2) Given the bot started printing the Western consensus first, I bet $10 it was trained by distilling ChatGPT or Gemini.
> After printing the line, a popup opened and my camera was activated. The app wanted me to submit my information, presumably to decide what to do with me next time I enter China.
Was this on your personal device? I'm just wondering how it activated your camera. I would love more details!
Yeah that part is either just bullshit or OP gave the bot access to his camera previously, which is just dumb.
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If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Detecting the word “Taiwan” has been possible since before most of us were born.
China has more restrictions on what you can say than the U.S. but what you are describing is not reality. Some westerner asking Deepseek about Taiwan is completely uninteresting. Just as the government do not chase people over VPN usage.
China doesn’t try to hide that they are an authoritarian state. They don’t need to. Most people in China are no less happy with their government than westerners are with their governments. Governments reflect culture. And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.
> If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response?
Not recognizing they were outputting wrongthink until after it was being streamed to the user is a known behavior with some Chinese chatbot apps. A quick search found an example of DeepSeek doing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_ce...
I don't think his story is genuine, but it showing the "wrong" answer before correcting itself is known behavior.
EDIT: Here's an example of it outputting a full response about Taiwan specifically before removing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1i7ceol/...
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This is manifestly false.
My wife grew up in Shanghai, and you'll have to go quite some distance to find someone more critical of the PRC and CCP than she is. And it's with good reason.
She grew up during the cultural revolution, and was largely raised by her grandmother because literally every other person in her extended family was in prison or work camp, not because of anything they had actually done wrong, but for political reasons because the whole family was blacklisted.
And that's not just the old days. Her father died as a direct result of Chinese Covid policy. During the pandemic her cousins still in the country would ask her (on Skype) "is X true?", and largely their perception of what was going on was false. She would exfiltrate encrypted news reports to them - until those started getting blocked. Her dad's estate still has affairs that need to be resolved, but we've decided not to return to China until Xi is gone, as it's just not safe. It doesn't get much airplay, but there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now. It's not worth the risk.
My first trip to China was about 30 years ago, shortly after we got married. And back then, I would have said that you were right. Honestly, it felt like for the average person in their day-to-day-lives, the Chinese were less under the governmental thumb than we are. People from the countryside would bring their produce into the city to sell, or cook dumplings and buns to sell on the side of the street - stuff that in America we'd have to get permits for. It seemed that the oligarchy had an understanding with the people: let us control the big picture, and we'll look the other way for the little things. But Chinese politics is a pendulum swinging very widely. From Tienanmen Square and Tank Man, it had swung quite a bit the other way. But today, it's come back 180-degrees. Xi is really trying for a Cultural Revolution 2.0.
These impressions largely match what I hear from other Chinese immigrants - except for Party members, who tend not to want to talk about it at all. I'm afraid that you've been listening to too much propaganda.
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DeepSeek would print all it's mental gymnastics to censor itself in the reasoning phase directly to the user, before shutting down the conversation. Apparantly such an odd move is a thing in China.
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You can trigger that behavior with Deepseek, just try it yourself.
>And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.
To the extent that's true, it's because they won't let you see the uyghur reeducation camps.
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I ran an anonymized Facebook account for years with thousands of followers that mainly sticks to news and politics.
Once I started criticizing Libs of TikTok, the propaganda arm for this administration, and getting traction with users, my account was locked and now I have to scan my face and ID if I want to use it again.
You have to toe the party line here, too.
Did everyone clap and Albert Einstein hand you a crisp $10 bill? You should use that to make the bet you mentioned!
(The first half is obviously true, the second part isn't)
>Given the bot started printing the Western consensus first, I bet $10 it was trained by distilling ChatGPT or Gemini.
To your point I've seen something similar with Deepseek, generic answers start printing and then, in plain sight, removed and replaced with a non committal message along the lines of "I don't have access to that information."
Nice bad story. Make up one better next time.
Can you tell what AI chat bots are you using? as i know all chat in China just block answer, no apps will activate camera and ask for information
I love Hacker News fiction. Wild stuff. haha
Which chat bot?
This risk is far overstated.
I was talking crap about china from the great wall.
You can't yell Free Palestine or the BBC will mute you...
Personally as a Dutch person it is amusing as all hell hoe goddamn triggered everyone gets about Israel- truly mindblowing.
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In France we have a report on Chinese officials abusing diplomatic rights to oppress Chinese critics (from Chineses expatriated people).
The disproportion between how this people express they opposition and how Chinese officials track them is HUGE. This very much feel unnecessary.
It was here: https://www.france.tv/france-2/envoye-special/5971095-la-chi...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-prS7BlLpI
I wonder what exactly the trigger conditions are that lead to the chats of an account being human-reviewed by OpenAI.
So, it seems they're openly admitting that OpenAI is a surveillance mechanism used at the discretion of the US gov.
I'm pretty sure they can just prompt any convo in the background and ask "is this conversation sensitive ?" and the model can answer without this being added to the context of the convo.
Such a hot topic these days: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/chatgpt-and-the-tumbler...
This is -the- question.
"Is this someone important enough to spy on?"
One hopes the CIA/Secret service would be willing to provide the human to do the reviewing but sadly I've worked for European telco's and I know better.
> sadly I've worked for European telco's and I know better
Can you elaborate?
Sounds like Anthropic is fighting this exact battle, and DOD is arguing they don’t want to do that lol
The amount of information about everything that people are giving OpenAI is astronomical, information that was previously kept closely guarded is now just freely flowing through foreign servers.
Truly a paradise for american intelligence. Would have expected that the chinese officials be briefed on not using us tech companies, but opsec is hard to teach, and even harder to always follow.
But the american silicon valley nerds pinky swear not to look!
How can you not trust them.
Did they though?
I never got to the end of the Terms & Conditions myself.
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This is the report on which the CNN article is based (which it doesn’t link to): https://cdn.openai.com/pdf/df438d70-e3fe-4a6c-a403-ff632def8...
I think one of the reasons why AI companies are valued this high is one can actually inspect what user inputs & outputs are.
It's basically an OSINT siphon.
In this Chinese case, the tokens are leaked at least twice. ChatGPT offers no direct access to the Chinese, they have to use some kind of Openrouter-like service, but the data where also in clear-text during transmission.
Wow, our surveillance helped take down their surveillance. Yay, I guess?
"Our glorious oversight vs their barbaric surveillance"
(I kid, mostly. While the US certainly isn't pure, its scale of surveillance intrusion is light compared to China)
> While the US certainly isn't pure, its scale of surveillance intrusion is light compared to China
I assume that for someone to believe this, they either have to believe the U.S. has poorer surveillance capability than China, or, more likely, they consider U.S. surveillance unintrusive and Chinese surveillance intrusive.
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More interesting than the fact that ChatGPT was used, was seeing all the specific examples of the types of work that this individual was doing.
Where can they be found?
Why did they ban the user rather than informing American intelligence and continuing to monitor the user?
They just gave up a source that could have provided info for years.
If I were doing this sort of thing, I would make certain to ban accounts that were too obvious while leaving ones that are subtle enough, so that the other side has less reason to suspect I am tracking their inputs and feeding them disinformation.
Good point. Perhaps that's what's happened here.
This tells us that we should never share sensitive information with GPT, even if you’ve set it not to use your data for training. Nothing can stop OpenAI from misusing your data.
I remember a while back when a few cars with CCP decals driving around SoCal to intimidate some dissidents!
> Chinese operators allegedly disguised themselves as US immigration officials
Pushing aside the fact that OpenAI is just a tool of the US regime.
Will OpenAI release the same for other government officials from any other states?
I can't wait to see Starmer's chats with ChatGPT.
Anyway, all of this smells like 1934, "accusing them of what we are already doing"
there are multiple states mentioned in the report, so yes
Mostly non aligned countries with the US
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For them, not of them. ChatGPT releases information on the US's enemies to the US. Will it release information on France's enemies to France?
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> “This is what Chinese modern transnational repression looks like,” Ben Nimmo, principal investigator at OpenAI, told reporters ahead of the report’s release. “It’s not just digital. It’s not just about trolling. It’s industrialized. [...]
There's something poetic about OpenAI being asked to comment on mis-use of their slop generator, and their answer is composed entirely of AI slop.
The more of it they and others put out, the more normalized and acceptable it becomes. The next generations will even think in slop.
China has hundreds of Fortune Global 500 companies and ranks second in GDP. But these have nothing to do with ordinary people.
Crazy to me that Chinese officials use ChatGPT to discuss sensitive operations lmao
Well someone's getting fired, hopefully not literally.
lol everyone claims deepseek and all chinese companies are collecting private information and ban them in western companies. but it is okay being spied by openai :)))
I like DeepSeek because of their pricing, although I'm still evaluating. I wonder if I'll need a VPN in the future to access it though (from EU). Cheap is good, cheap prevails.
The official DeepSeek API is routed through AWS load balancing btw.
I'm assuming they would not disclose such campaigns by the US government.
I can't imagine the amount of government secrets, trade secrets, business plans, personal secrets, etc that people divulge on there.
Very creepy on the part of Open AI. Glad I don't use chatgpt
> intimidating Chinese dissidents abroad, including by impersonating US immigration officials
I hope those victims of immigration impersonation don't have family within China's borders. AI-enabled impersonation and intimidation are far from the worst of China's crimes [1] against its overseas critics.
China likes to make you an offer you can't refuse [2] [3]: You're saying stuff the Chinese government doesn't like, but you live outside its borders and the secret police can't get at you? You need to come to China and be jailed (or worse). If you don't, your family will be the ones who are jailed (or worse). Or you can unalive yourself, and save the glorious Chinese Communist Party the expense of a bullet.
[1] China would say "the government punishes a criminal's family" is not a crime, it's a perfectly legal implementation of government policy under Chinese law. I respond that the death camps were perfectly legal implementation of government policy under Nazi law, but were still crimes against humanity -- China's actions fall in this category of crimes.
As I understand it: Western societies have a very individualistic view of responsibility. If you didn't commit a crime, you're innocent. Punishing the innocent family members of a criminal is morally abominable.
In the Chinese Communist Party's view, criminal responsibility is collectivist. By their definition, the family members of a criminal share responsibility for the crime regardless of their participation in the criminal acts. "Innocent family members of a criminal" is a logically inconsistent concept in their world view. The family of a criminal is guilty by definition -- being related to a criminal is itself a crime.
This is sickening to me.
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt
[3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-08/fbi-chief-says-china-...
i kinda get the impression this was from 2023 and also it is not clear what this dissident did, hard to evaluate whether i should care without knowing that
Holy dystopian f*k. So not only does ChatGPT record all interactions, it actually leaks them to the press when they see fit?
If you still needed a reason to look into self hosted models, it'd be tough to find a better one than this.
> “It’s not just digital. It’s not just about trolling. It’s industrialized. It’s about trying to hit critics of the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] with everything, everywhere, all at once.”
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>neurocompromise
What is that?
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