Comment by munchbunny
9 hours ago
Having been both the interviewer and the candidate in this kind of situation, this is really a big interviewer training failure.
The general way to handle this as an interviewer is really simple: acknowledge that the interviewee gave a good answer, but ask that for the purposes of evaluating their technical design skills that you'd like for them to design a new system/code a new implementation to solve this problem.
If the candidate isn't willing to suspend disbelief for the exercise, then you can consider that alongside all of the other signals your interviewer team gets about the candidate. I generally take it as a negative signal, not because I need conformance, but because I need someone who can work through honest technical disagreements.
As a candidate, what's worked for me before was to ask the interviewer if they'd prefer that I pretend ____ doesn't exist and come up with a new design, but it makes me question whether I want to join that team. IMO it's the systems design equivalent of the interviewer arguing with you about your valid algorithm because it's not the one the interviewer expects.
A good interviewer won’t be looking for a single solution to the problem. I’d expect them to entertain the Google Sheets answer - it’s good signal that the candidate will consider what already exists in the world. I’d rather extend the problem: the team is spending considerable time iterating with manual entry, what would you do?
Complete agreement. "Excellent answer, that is what I would do as well, now what if we wanted to build it in-house?"
"That does sound like something nice to have. However, recreating Google Sheets is a substantial undertaking. First, we need to evaluate the business case for duplicating something that already exists to ensure that there is a net benefit in doing so. Second, we need to determine if the business has sufficient capital to see the project through."
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> "now what if we wanted to build it in-house?"
"Well I would probably go home and work on my resume because that's a fool's errand."
I hate going to work and reinventing wheels all day because the company I work for thinks it's so special that every business function needs a 100% tailored solution to solved problems. I much prefer working somewhere that's able to tailor business processes to conform to existing standards.
But maybe that's just me.
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The obvious way is to put the spreadsheet file on some shared network location.
You still need some "locking" mechanism so two people don't try editing at the same time.
Which again probably means Google Sheets is the best answer!
While I agree, how much training does anyone get as an interviewer? I spent 10+ years doing interviews at all sorts of orgs (including Fortune 500s, government, etc.) without a single hour of interviewer training.
Now that I think about it, none of those organizations ever trained me at anything at all. Huh.
> none of those organizations ever trained me at anything at all
They trained us repeatedly not to bribe foreign government officials, even though I had zero access to anybody like that. There was also some mandatory training against harassing coworkers. I.e. "protect the company from lawsuits" training, not "here are some ideas for how to do your job more effectively" training. They were megacorps, too.
> "protect the company from lawsuits
Yeah that's proven by the fact they get degree educated level engineers and force feed them videos designed for people working entry level positions. Its a crying shame because there's actually a lot of interesting discussions around nuance that are just sidelined by these videos creating basic bitch absurdities:
> During the lunch break, Jim has dipped his penis into Samantha's yoghurt
> is this:
> a) entirely acceptable, its just his culture
> b) a borderline issue
> c) something that someone should report to HR
Instead of:
Jane is developing feelings for someone that reports to her, they meet up outside of work and have a one-night stand. What should Jane do next?
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In my case? Two days I think (it was long ago). Two very eye-opening days.
> While I agree, how much training does anyone get as an interviewer?
TL;DR: not enough training.
As a hiring manager, whenever we start a hiring period I have a conversation with my interviewer team about what qualities we're looking for and review the questions they plan to ask in order to normalize the process. Stuff like "what does a good answer look like, and why? what does a bad answer look like? is this something easy for a candidate to engage with or will you spend half the interview just explaining the background? is this coding question unreasonably hard?" and so on.
I also look at the evaluations that interviewers give relative to other interviewers. Almost every hiring cycle I've done I've had to deal with some interviewer (all over the seniority spectrum) asking unreasonably hard questions.
Yeah, I had no training on being an interviewer before I started doing interviews. My manager gave me some tips, and I came up with two security bug-hunt exercises (was hiring AppSec engineers), but that was it.
Now, I wonder if I had rejected earlier candidates that I would have passed if I was a better interviewer.
The best advice I've had on interviewing is: Find an actual problem that your team is actually working through and ask the candidate how they would approach it.
Then to jazz it up: simplify the proble. To get to the root stuff that needs to be covered (e.g. ignore creating Jira tickets and focus on connecting to a database with cross-refion replication). You also want it to be simple enough that it can be solved in <30 minutes
Quite a bit based on the number of interviews performed at software companies. Being on either side of the fence gives you experience.
That's unusual. Maybe that's a US thing? In Europe anywhere I've had to interview people I've received at least a couple of hours of training and then usually sat in as the shadow on at least one interview.
Quality varies, but I think it's only the super small outfits where I've been expected to just wing it.
Same here. I receive a training budget at some places but it goes unspent. Everything is self directed learning in my own time.
Seriously? I worked at startups and research institutions. We trained people on interviews. I know Google used to invest quite a bit on interview training.
Sounds common to have training in big tech but I never received any training either. Sometimes we’d discuss changes we wanted to make to the interview process, which suppose could be considered adjacent to training.
I prefer pushing the constraints to motivate a different solution instead of asking them to do an unmotivated exercise.
“Google Sheets is a great solution for two people, but let’s say the department expands and now it’s ten people. How does this change your answer?”
It’s easy to break Google Sheets as a workflow by increasing the number of users, adding complex business logic, etc.
It’s interesting to see what candidates come up with and how they think. Sometimes the solutions are genuinely interesting. Mostly they’re not, which is okay. If you don’t give yourself the opportunity to learn as an interviewer, you’re missing out.
> this is really a big interviewer training failure.
Vast majority of interviews are pretty bad. I can only remember one or two interviews that did not colossally suck in some way.
It takes a lot of practice to become good interviewer and majority of ICs especially at small shops never get the required mileage. I don't think i really knew what i was doing until like 100 sessions in...
Thats fair, it definitely sucks for those seeking employment to have a really awful interview. How do you turn it around without looking like an a-hole…
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If I would be the interviewer in this kind of situation, I would just follow up with something like this: "that might be a good option, but let's assume you need to build a tool to replace those excel sheets, ..."
Surprisingly often you do get an interviewee who just won't accept the premise of the hypothetical. I've had people get hung up on the equivalent of 'but I'd just use excel' even with prompting/nudging/explanation that this is an exercise.
“Yeah okay forget sense, show me how good you are at budget protecting overdesign”