Comment by _0ffh
2 months ago
> This is hyperbolic
Maybe a bit, but unfortunately sometimes not so much. I recently had an LLM write a couple of transforms on a tree in Python. The node class just had "kind" and "children" defined, nothing else. The LLM added new attributes to use in the new node kinds (Python allows to just do "foo.bar=baz" to add one). Apparently it saw a lot of code doing that during training.
I corrected the code by hand and modified the Node class to raise an error when new attributes are added, with an emphatic source code comment to not add new attributes.
A couple of sessions later it did it again, even adding it's own comment about circumventing the restriction! X-|
Anyways, I think I mostly agree with your assessment. I might be dating myself here, but I'm not even sure what happened that made "coding" grunt work. It used to be every "coder" was an "architect" as well, and did their own legwork as needed. Maybe labor shortages changed that.
> It used to be every "coder" was an "architect" as well, and did their own legwork as needed.
I disagree. I remember in the days before "software engineer" became the rage that the standard job titles had a clear delineation between the people who thought the big thoughts with titles like "analyst" and the people who did the grunt work of coding who were "programmers". You'd also see roles in between like "programmer/analyst"
Might be a big company thing then, but I'm not wholly convinced. There's a big gap between designing the outline of a big system and coding instructions that can be followed without having to make your own decisions. The question of how much of that gap is filled by the "design" vs "coding" levels is a spectrum.
I think I see what you're saying and if so we're talking past each other a bit and I agree with what you're saying as well.
The point I was raising is by the time an IC developer sees something, there's already been a process of curation that happens that frames the possible solutions & constrains branch points. This is different from saying that an IC makes 0 implementation decisions. The C-suite has set a direction. A product manager has defined the shape of the solution. A tech lead, architect, or whatever may have further limited scope. And any of these could just already be in effect at a global scale or on the specific problem at hand. Then the IC picks up the work and proceeds to make the last mile decisions. And it's turtles all the way up. At almost all levels on the career ladder, there are people above and/or upstream of you who are pre-curating your potential decision tree.
As an analogy, I once had a fresh tech lead under me where they didn't understand this. Their team became a mess. They'd introduce raw tickets straight from the PM to their team without having thought about them at all and things ground to a halt due to decision paralysis. From their perspective that's how it was always done when they were an IC in that group. The team tackled the tickets together to work out how to accomplish their goals. It took a lot of effort to convince them that what they *didn't see* was their prior tech lead narrowing down the search space a bit, and then framing the problem in a way that that made it easier for the team to move forward.
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I'm with you, it's constantly doing stupid shit and ignoring instructions, and I've always been responsible for determining architecture and doing the "legwork." Unless the task is so small and well defined that it's less typing to tell the LLM (and clean up its output) then i may as well just do it myself
> what happened that made "coding" grunt work
Modern human programming has devolved to nothing more than modeling problems and systems using lines of code, procedures, sub-routines and modules, utilizing a “hack it till it works”(tm) methodology.
> utilizing a “hack it till it works”(tm) methodology.
Your post describes my coding perfectly. I don't have CS training of any type, never been formally involved in software development (recently started dabbling in OSS) and never used an LLM/agent for help (do use a local SLM for autocomplete and suggestions only).
Yet I can "code." I suspect a (pre-2023ish) software developer would likely tell me "go learn to code" if i asked for review. I don't know the formal syntax people expect to see and it has organization more typical of raging dumpster fires. Doesn't mean it's not code.