Comment by zarzavat
18 hours ago
The best thing the C++ WG could do is to spend an entire release cycle working on modules and packaging.
It's nice to have new features, but what is really killing C++ is Cargo. I don't think a new generation of developers are going to be inspired to learn a language where you can't simply `cargo add` whatever you need and instead have to go through hell to use a dependency.
100% agree this is something that would have immediate, high value impact.
The fact that building C++ is this opaque process defined in 15 different ways via make, autoconf, automake, cmake, ninja, with 50 other toolchains is something that continues to create a barrier to entry.
I still remember the horrors of trying to compile c++ in 2004 on windows without anything besides borland...
Standardizing the build system and toolchain needs to happen. It's a hard problem that needs to be solved.
To me, the most important feature of Cargo isn't even the dependency management but that I don't ever need to tell it which files to compile or where to find them. The fact that it knows to look for lib.rs or main.rs in src and then recursively find all my other modules without me needing to specify targets or anything like that is a killer feature on its own IMO. Over the past couple of years I've tried to clone and build a number of dotnet packages for various things, but for an ecosystem that's supposedly cross-platform, almost none of them seem to just work by default when I run `dotnet build` and instead require at least some fixes in the various project files. I don't think I've ever had an issue with a Rust project, and it's hard not to feel like a big part of that is because there's not really much configuration to be done. The list of dependencies is just about the only thing in there that effects the default build; if there's any other configuration other than that and the basic metadata like the name, the repo link, the license, etc., it almost always will end up being specifically for alternate builds (like extra options for release builds, alternate features that can be compiled in, etc.).
> The fact that it knows to look for lib.rs or main.rs in src and then recursively find all my other modules without me needing to specify targets or anything like that is a killer feature on its own IMO.
In the interest of pedantry, locating source files relative to the crate root is a language-level Rust feature, not something specific to Cargo. You can pass any single Rust source file directly to rustc (bypassing Cargo altogether) and it will treat it as a crate root and locate additional files as needed based on the normal lookup rules.
Interesting, I didn't realize this! I know that a "crate" is specifically the unit of compilation for rustc, but I assumed there was some magic in cargo that glued the modules together into a single AST rather than it being in rustc itself.
That being said, I'd argue that the fact that this happens so transparently that people don't really need to know this to use Cargo correctly is somewhat the point I was making. Compared to something like cmake, the amount of effort to use it is at least an order of magnitude lower.
> I don't think I've ever had an issue with a Rust project, and it's hard not to feel like a big part of that is because there's not really much configuration to be done.
For most crates, yes. But you might be surprised how many crates have a build.rs that is doing more complex stuff under the hood (generating code, setting environment variables, calling a C compiler, make or some other build system, etc). It just also almost always works flawlessly (and the script itself has a standardised name), so you don't notice most of the time.
True, but if anything, a build.rs is a lot easier for me to read and understand (or even modify) if needed because I already know Rust. With something like cmake, the build configuration is an entirely separate language the one I'm actually working in, and I haven't seen a project that doesn't have at least some amount of custom configuration in it. Starting up a cargo project literally doesn't require putting anything in the Cargo.toml that doesn't exist after you run `cargo new`.
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But you are specifying source files, although indirectly, aren't you? That's what all those `mod blah` with a corresponding `blah.rs` file present in the correct location are.
Yep ... go/zig pkg management has the same benefit compared to c/c++.
For me the lack of dependency hell until I hit a c/c++ component somewhere in the build is the real winner.
I’m still surprised how people ignore Meson. Please test it :)
https://mesonbuild.com/
And Mesons awesome dependency handling:
https://mesonbuild.com/Dependencies.html
https://mesonbuild.com/Using-the-WrapDB.html#using-the-wrapd...
https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2026/02/c-and-c-dependencies...
I suffered with Java from Any, Maven and Gradle (the oldest is the the best). After reading about GNU Autotools I was wondering why the C/C++ folks still suffer? Right at that time Meson appeared and I skipped the suffering.
Feel free to extend WrapDB.
Meson is indeed nice, but has very poor support for GPU compilation compared to CMake. I've had a lot of success adopting the practices described in this talk, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5Kg8TOTKjU. I thought I knew a lot of CMake, but file sets definitely make things a lot simpler.
Meson merges the crappy state of C/C++ tooling with something like Cargo in the worst way possible: by forcing you to handle the complexity of both. Nothing about Meson is simple, unless you're using it in Rust, in which case you're better off with Cargo.
In C++ you don't get lockfiles, you don't get automatic dependency install, you don't get local dependencies, there's no package registry, no version support, no dependency-wide feature flags (this is an incoherent mess in Meson), no notion of workspaces, etc.
Compared to Cargo, Meson isn't even in the same galaxy. And even compared to CMake, Meson is yet another incompatible incremental "improvement" that offers basically nothing other than cute syntax (which in an era when AI writes all of your build system anyway, doesn't even matter). I'd much rather just pick CMake and move on.
It lacks the first party support cmake enjoys.
Build system generators (like Meson, autotools, CMake or any other one) can't solve programming language module and packaging problems, even in principle. So, it's not clear what your argument is here.
> I’m still surprised how people ignore Meson. Please test it :)
I did just that a few years ago and found it rather inconvenient and inflexible, so I went back to ignoring it. But YMMV I suppose.
> After reading about GNU Autotools
Consider Kitware's CMake.
Agreed, arcane cmake configs and or bash build scripts are genuinely off-putting. Also cpp "equivalents" of cargo which afaik are conan and vcpkg are not default and required much more configuring in comparison with cargo. Atleast this was my experience few years ago.
It's fundamentally different; Rust entirely rejects the notion of a stable ABI, and simply builds everything from source.
C and C++ are usually stuck in that antiquated thinking that you should build a module, package it into some libraries, install/export the library binaries and associated assets, then import those in other projects. That makes everything slow, inefficient, and widely dangerous.
There are of course good ways of building C++, but those are the exception rather than the standard.
"Stable ABI" is a joke in C++ because you can't keep ABI and change the implementation of a templated function, which blocks improvements to the standard library.
In C, ABI = API because the declaration of a function contains the name and arguments, which is all the info needed to use it. You can swap out the definition without affecting callers.
That's why Rust allows a stable C-style ABI; the definition of a function declared in C doesn't have to be in C!
But in a C++-style templated function, the caller needs access to the definition to do template substitution. If you change the definition, you need to recompile calling code i.e. ABI breakage.
If you don't recompile calling code and link with other libraries that are using the new definition, you'll violate the one-definition rule (ODR).
This is bad because duplicate template functions are pruned at link-time for size reasons. So it's a mystery as to what definition you'll get. Your code will break in mysterious ways.
This means the C++ committee can never change the implementation of a standardized templated class or function. The only time they did was a minor optimization to std::string in 2011 and it was such a catastrophe they never did it again.
That is why Rust will not support stable ABIs for any of its features relying on generic types. It is impossible to keep the ABI stable and optimize an implementation.
It's not true that Rust rejects "the notion of a stable ABI". Rust rejects the C++ solution of freeze everything and hope because it's a disaster, it's less stable than some customers hoped and yet it's frozen in practice so it disappoints others. Rust says an ABI should be a promise by a developer, the way its existing C ABI is, that you can explicitly make or not make.
Rust is interested in having a properly thought out ABI that's nicer than the C ABI which it supports today. It'd be nice to have say, ABI for slices for example. But "freeze everything and hope" isn't that, it means every user of your language into the unforeseeable future has to pay for every mistake made by the language designers, and that's already a sizeable price for C++ to pay, "ABI: Now or never" spells some of that out and we don't want to join them.
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> C and C++ are usually stuck in that antiquated thinking that you should build a module, package it into some libraries, install/export the library binaries and associated assets, then import those in other projects. That makes everything slow, inefficient, and widely dangerous.
It seems to me the "convenient" options are the dangerous ones.
The traditional method is for third party code to have a stable API. Newer versions add functions or fix bugs but existing functions continue to work as before. API mistakes get deprecated and alternatives offered but newly-deprecated functions remain available for 10+ years. With the result that you can link all applications against any sufficiently recent version of the library, e.g. the latest stable release, which can then be installed via the system package manager and have a manageable maintenance burden because only one version needs to be maintained.
Language package managers have a tendency to facilitate breaking changes. You "don't have to worry" about removing functions without deprecating them because anyone can just pull in the older version of the code. Except the older version is no longer maintained.
Then you're using a version of the code from a few years ago because you didn't need any of the newer features and it hadn't had any problems, until it picks up a CVE. Suddenly you have vulnerable code running in production but fixing it isn't just a matter of "apt upgrade" because no one else is going to patch the version only you were using, and the current version has several breaking changes so you can't switch to it until you integrate them into your code.
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I would suggest importing binaries and metadata is going to be faster than compiling all the source for that.
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"That makes everything slow, inefficient, and widely dangerous."
There nothing faster and more efficient than building C programs. I also not sure what is dangerous in having libraries. C++ is quite different though.
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>There are of course good ways of building C++, but those are the exception rather than the standard.
What are the good ways?
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In my experience, no one does build systems right; Cargo included.
The standard was initially meant to standardize existing practice. There is no good existing practice. Very large institutions depending heavily on C++ systematically fail to manage the build properly despite large amounts of third party licenses and dedicated build teams.
With AI, how you build and integrate together fragmented code bases is even more important, but someone has yet to design a real industry-wide solution.
Speedy convenience beats absolute correctness anyday. Humans are not immortal and have finite amount of time for life and work. If convenience didn't matter, we would all still be coding in assembly or toggling hardware switches.
C++ builds are extremely slow because they are not correct.
I'm doing a migration of a large codebase from local builds to remote execution and I constantly have bugs with mystery shared library dependencies implicitly pulled from the environment.
This is extremely tricky because if you run an executable without its shared library, you get "file not found" with no explanation. Even AI doesn't understand this error.
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The Mars Polar Lander and Mars Climate Orbiter missions would beg to differ.
(And "absolute" or other adjectives don't qualify "correctness"... it simply is or isn't.)
I may be in the minority but I like that C++ has multiple package managers, as you can use whichever one best fits your use case, or none at all if your code is simple enough.
It's the same with compilers, there's not one single implementation which is the compiler, and the ecosystem of compilers makes things more interesting.
Multiple package managers is fine, what's needed is a common repository standard (or even any repository functionality at all). Look at how it works in Java land, where if you don't want to use Maven you can use Gradle or Bazel or what have you, or if you hate yourself you can use Ant+Ivy, but all of them share the same concept of what a dependency is and can use the same repositories.
Also, having one standard packaging format and registry doesn't preclude having alternatives for special use cases.
There should be a happy path for the majority of C++ use cases so that I can make a package, publish it and consume other people's packages. Anyone who wants to leave that happy path can do so freely at their own risk.
The important thing is to get one system blessed as The C++ Package Format by the standard to avoid xkcd 927 issues.
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It is already there, with vcpkg and conan, alongside cmake.
You cannot cargo add Unreal, LLVM, GCC, CUDA,...
I didn’t think header only was that bad - now we have a nightmare of incompatible standards and compilers.