Comment by hnlmorg
14 hours ago
Sure, if you don’t count safety features like memory management, crash handling, automatic bounds checks and encryption cyphers; as anything useful.
I do completely agree that there is a lot of waste in modern software. But equally there is also a lot more that has to be included in modern software that wasn’t ever a concern in the 80s.
Networking stacks, safety checks, encryption stacks, etc all contribute massively to software “bloat”.
You can see how this quickly adds up if you write a “hello world” CLI in assembly and compare that to the equivalent in any modern language that imports all these features into its runtime.
And this is all before you take into account that modern graphics and audio is bitmap / PCM and running at resolutions literally orders of magnitude greater than anything supported by 80s micro computers.
Yes, but this doesn't prevent you from being mindful and selecting the right tools with smaller memory footprint while providing the features you need.
Go's "GC disadvantage" is turned on its head by developing "Zero Allocation" libraries which run blazingly fast with fixed memory footprints. Similarly, rolling your own high performance/efficient code where it matters can save tremendous amounts of memory where it matters.
Of course more features and safety nets will consume memory, but we don't have to waste it like there are no other things running on the system, no?
> And this is all before you take into account that modern graphics and audio is bitmap / PCM and running at resolutions literally orders of magnitude greater than anything supported by 80s micro computers.
This demo [0] is a 4kB executable. 4096 bytes. A single file. All assets, graphics, music and whatnot, and can run at high resolutions with real time rendering.
This is [1] 64kB and this [2] is 177kB. This game from the same group is 96kB with full 3D graphics [3].
[0]: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=52938
[1]: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1221
[2]: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30244
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger
Programming these days, in some realms, is a lot like shopping for food - some people just take the box off the shelf, don't bother with reading the ingredients, throw it in with some heat and fluid and serve it up as a 3-star meal.
Others carefully select the ingredients, construct the parts they don't already have, spend the time to get the temperatures and oxygenation aligned, and then sit down to a humble meal for one.
Not many programmers, these days, do code-reading like baddies, as they should.
However, kids, the more you do it the better you get at it, so there is simply no excuse for shipping someone elses bloat.
Do you know how many blunt pointers are lined up underneath your BigFatFancyFeature, holding it up?
You’re not wrong, but I just can’t bring myself to agree fully with someone just dribbling with condescension as they speak, like you are here.
Christ. Drop the greybeard act, man. You’re not getting any trophies for being the most annoying one to chime in.
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> Go's "GC disadvantage" is turned on its head by developing "Zero Allocation" libraries which run blazingly fast with fixed memory footprints. Similarly, rolling your own high performance/efficient code where it matters can save tremendous amounts of memory where it matters.
The savings there would be negligible (in modern terms) but the development cost would be significantly increased.
> Of course more features and safety nets will consume memory, but we don't have to waste it like there are no other things running on the system, no?
Safety nets are not a waste. They’re a necessary cost of working with modern requirements. For example, If your personal details were stolen from a MITM attack then I’m sure you’d be asking why that piece of software wasn’t encrypting that data.
The real waste in modern software is:
1. Electron: but we are back to the cost of hiring developers
2. Application theming. But few actual users would want to go back to plain Windows 95 style widgets (many, like myself, on HN wouldn’t mind, but we are a niche and not the norm).
> This demo [0] is a 4kB executable. 4096 bytes. A single file. All assets, graphics, music and whatnot, and can run at high resolutions with real time rendering.
You quoted where i said that modern resolutions are literally orders of magnitude greater and assets stored in bitmaps / PCM then totally ignored that point.
When you wrote audio data in the 80s, you effectively wrote midi files in machine code. Obviously it wasn’t literally midi, but you’d describe notes, envelopes etc. You’d very very rarely store that audio as a waveform because audio chips then simply don’t support a high enough bitrate to make that audio sound good (nor had the storage space to save it). Whereas these days, PCM (eg WAV, MP3, FLAC, etc) sound waaaay better than midi and are much easier for programmers to work with. But even a 2 second long 16bit mono PCM waveform is going to be more than 4KB.
And modern graphics aren’t limited to 2 colour sprites (more colours were achieved via palette swapping) at 8x8 pixels. Scale that up to 32bits (not colours, bits) and you’re increasing the colour depth by literally 32 times. And that’s before you scale again from 64 pixels to thousands of pixels.
You’re then talking exponential memory growth in all dimensions.
I’ve written software for those 80s systems and modern systems too. And it’s simply ridiculous to Compare graphics and audio of those systems to modern systems without taking into account the differences in resolution, colour depth, and audio bitrates.
> Application theming
Software 30 years ago was more amenable to theming. The more system widgets you use, the more effective theming works by swapping them.
Now, we have grudging dark-mode toggles that aren't consistent or universal, not even rising to the level of configurabilty you got with Windows 3.1 themes, let alone things like libXaw3d or libneXtaw where the fundamental widget-drawing code could be swapped out silently.
I get the impression that since about 2005, theming has been on the downturn. Windows XP and OSX both were very close to having first class, user-facing theming systems, but both sort of chickened out at the last minute, and ever since, we've seen less and less control every release.
I think what you're describing as "theming" is more "custom UI". It used to be reserved for games, where stock Windows widgets broke immersion in a medieval fantasy strategy simulator and you were legally obliged to make the cursor a gauntlet or sword. But Electron said to the entire world "go to town, burn the system Human Interface Guidelines and make a branded nightmare!" when your application is a smart-bulb controller or a text editor that could perfectly well fit with native widgets.
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> The savings there would be negligible (in modern terms)
A word of praise for Go: it is pretty performant, while using very little memory. I inherited a few Django apps, and each thread just grows to 1GB. Running something like celery quickly eats up all memory and start thrashing. My Go replacements idle at around 20MB, and are a lot faster. It really works.
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> The savings there would be negligible (in modern terms) but the development cost would be significantly increased.
...and this effort and small savings here and there is what brings the massive savings at the end of the day. Electron is what "4KB here and there won't hurt", "JS is a very dynamic language so we can move fast", and "time to market is king, software is cheap, network is reliable, YOLO!" banged together. It's a big "Leeroy Jenkins!" move in the worst possible sense, making users pay everyday with resources and lost productivity to save a developer a couple of hours at most.
Users are not cattle to milk, they and their time/resources also deserve respect. Electron is doing none of that.
> You quoted where i said that modern resolutions are literally orders of magnitude greater and assets stored in bitmaps / PCM then totally ignored that point.
Did you watch or ran any of these demos? Some (if not all) of them scale to 4K and all of them have more than two colors. All are hardware accelerated, too.
> And modern graphics aren’t limited to 2 colour sprites (more colours were achieved via palette swapping) at 8x8 pixels. Scale that up to 32bits (not colours, bits) and you’re increasing the colour depth by literally 32 times. And that’s before you scale again from 64 pixels to thousands of pixels.
Sorry to say that, but I know what graphics and high performance programming entails. Had two friends develop their own engines, and I manage HPC systems. I know how much memory matrices need, because everything is matrices after some point.
> Safety nets are not a waste.
I didn't say they are waste. That quote is out of context. Quoting my comment's first paragraph, which directly supports the part you quoted: "Yes, but this doesn't prevent you from being mindful and selecting the right tools with smaller memory footprint while providing the features you need."
So, what I argue is, you don't have to bring in everything and the kitchen sink if all you need is a knife and a cutting board. Bring in the countertop and some steel gloves to prevent cutting yourself.
> I’ve written software for those 80s systems and modern systems too. And it’s simply ridiculous to Compare graphics and audio of those systems to modern systems without taking into account the differences in resolution, colour depth, and audio bitrates.
Me too. I also record music and work on high performance code. While they are not moving much, I take photos and work on them too, so I know what happens under the hood.
Just watch the demos. It's worth your time.
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That first one was discussed on HN before, as its source code was also released: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11848097
I was sure once I saw the descriptions that what you're posting is Farbrausch prods! Do you know if anyone came close to this level since?
I'm not following the scene for the last couple of years, but I doubt that. On the other hand, there are other very capable people doing very interesting things.
That C64 demo doing sprite wizardy and 8088MPH comes to my mind. The latter one, as you most probably know, can't be emulated since it (ab)uses hardware directly. :D
As a trivia: After watching .the .product, I declared "if a computer can do this with a 64kB binary, and people can make a computer do this, I can do this", and high performance/efficient programming became my passion.
From any mundane utility to something performance sensitive, that demo is my northern star. The code I write shall be as small, performant and efficient as possible while cutting no corners. This doesn't mean everything is written in assembly, but utmost care is given how something I wrote works and feels while it's running.
Your third example seems to generate 2G of data at runtime, so misleadingly minimalistic
All of them generates tons (up to tens of gigabytes or more) of data during runtime, but they all output it, and don't store them on disk or RAM.
They are highly dynamic programs, and not very different from game engines on that regard.
> misleadingly minimalistic.
That's the magic of these programs or demoscene in general. No misleading. That's the goal.
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I would also add internationalization. There were multi-language games back in the day, but the overhead of producing different versions for different markets was extremely high. Unicode has .. not quite trivialized this, but certainly made a lot of things possible that weren't.
Much respect to people who've manage to retrofit it: there are guerilla translated versions of some Japanese-only games.
> this is all before you take into account that modern graphics and audio is bitmap / PCM and running at resolutions literally orders of magnitude greater
Yes, people underestimate how much this contributes, especially to runtime memory usage.
The framebuffer size for a single 320x200 image with 16 colours is 32k, so nearly the same amount of memory as this entire game.
320x200 being an area of screen not much larger than a postage stamp on my 4k monitor.
The technical leap from 40 years ago never fails to astound me.
The 48k Spectrum had a 1-bit "framebuffer" with colours allocated to 8x8 character tiles. Most consoles of the time were entirely tile/sprite based, so you never had a framebuffer in RAM at all.
I think it's a valid view that (a) we have way more resources and (b) sometimes they are badly used in ways that results in systems being perceptibly slower than the C64 sometimes, when measured in raw latency between user input and interaction response. Usually because of some crippling system bottleneck that everything is forced through.
> all contribute massively to software “bloat”.
Could you point to an example where those gigs were really "massively" due crash handling and bounds checks etc?
Most software doesn’t consume multiple gigabytes of memory outside of games and web browsers.
And it should be obvious why games and web browsers do.
Unfortunately "most software" might be a web browser these days.
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I implemented a system recently that is a drop in replacement for a component of ours, old used 250gb of memory, new one uses 6gb, exact same from the outside.
Bad code is bad code, poor choices are poor choices — but I think it’s often times pretty fair to judge things harshly on resource usage sometimes.
Sure, but if you’re talking about 250GB of memory then you’re clearly discussing edge cases vs normal software running on an average persons computer. ;)
Back the day people had BASIC and some machines had Forth and it was like
or
for Forth.
By comparison, giving how they optimized the games for 8 and 16 bit machines I should have been able to compile Cataclysm DDA:BN under my potato netbook and yet it needs GIGABYTES of RAM to compile, it crazy that you need damn swap for something it required far less RAM 15 years ago for the same features.
If the game was reimplemented in Golang it wouldn't feel many times slower. But no, we are suffering the worst from both sides of the coin: something that should have been replaced by Inferno -plan9 people, the C and Unix creators and now Golang, their cousin- with horrible compiline times, horrible and incompatible ABI's, featuritis, crazy syntax with templates and if you are lucky, memory safety.
Meanwhile I wish the forked Inferno/Purgatorio got a seamless -no virtual desktops- mode so you fired the application in a VM integrated with the guest window manager -a la Java- and that's it. Limbo+Tk+Sqlite would have been incredible for CRUD/RAD software once the GUI was polished up a little, with sticky menus as TCL/Tk and the like. In the end, if you know Golang you could learn Limbo's syntax (same channels too) with ease.
BASIC was slow in the 80s. Games for the C64 (and similar machines) were written in machine code.
> By comparison, giving how they optimized the games for 8 and 16 bit machines I should have been able to compile Cataclysm DDA:BN under my potato netbook and yet it needs GIGABYTES of RAM to compile, it crazy that you need damn swap for something it required far less RAM 15 years ago for the same features.
That’s not crazy. You’re comparing interpreted, line delimited, ASCII, with a compiler that converts structured ASCII into machine code.
The two processes are as different to one another as a driving a bus is to being a passenger on it.
I don’t understand what your point is in the next two paragraphs. What Go, TCL, UNIX nor Inferno have to do with the C64 or modern software. So you’ll have to help out there.
Compare Limbo+Tk under Inferno with current C#/Java. Or C++ against Plan9C.
We have impressive CPU's running really crappy software.
Remember Claude Code asking 66GB for a damn CLI AI agent for something NetBSD under a Vax (real or physical) from 1978 could do with NCurses in miliseconds every time you spawn Nethack or any other NCurses tool/game.
On speed, Forth for the ACE was faster than Basic running under the ZX80. So, it wasn't about using a text-parsed language. Forth was fast, but people was not ready for neither RPN nor to manage the stack, people tought in an algebraic way.
But that was an 'obsolete' mindset, because once you hit HS you were supposed to split 'big problems into smaller tasks (equations). In order to implement a 2nd degree equation solver in Forth you wouldn't juggle with the stack; you created discrete functions (words) for the discrimination part and so on.
In the end you just managed two stack items per step.
If Forth won instead of Basic, instead of allowing spaghetti code as a normal procedure we would be pretty much asking to decompose code into small functions as the right thing to do from the start.
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>Sure, if you don’t count safety features like memory management, crash handling, automatic bounds checks and encryption cyphers; as anything useful.
>Networking stacks, safety checks, encryption stacks, etc all contribute massively to software “bloat”.
They had most of this stuff in the 1980s, and even earlier really. Not on your little 8-bit microcomputer that cost $299 that might have had as a kid, but they certainly did exist on large time-sharing systems used in universities and industry and government. And those systems had only a tiny fraction of the memory that a typical x86-64 laptop has now.
> They had most of this stuff in the 1980s, and even earlier really. Not on your little 8-bit microcomputer that cost $299 that might have had as a kid
Those are the systems we are talking about though.
> but they certainly did exist on large time-sharing systems used in universities and industry and government. And those systems had only a tiny fraction of the memory that a typical x86-64 laptop has now.
Actually this systems didn’t. In the early 80s most protocols were still ASCII based. Even remote shell connections weren’t encrypted. Remember that SSH wasn’t released until 1995. Likewise for SSL.
Time sharing systems were notoriously bad for sandboxing users too. Smart pointers, while available since the 60s, weren’t popularised in C++ until the 90s. Memory overflow bugs were rife (and still are) in C-based languages.
If you were using Fortran or ALGOL, then it was a different story. But by the time the 80s came around, mainframe OSs weren’t being written in FORTRAN / ALGOL any longer. Software running on top of it might, but you’re still at the mercy of all that insecure C code running beneath it.
> Actually this systems didn’t. In the early 80s most protocols were still ASCII based.
DES was standardised in '77. In use, before that. SSL was not the first time the world adopted encrypted protocols.
The NSA wouldn't have weakened the standard, it was something nobody used.
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This. An old netbook cam emulate a PDP10 with ITS, Maclisp and some DECNET-TCP/IP clients and barely suffer any lag...
Also the Amiga's have AmiSSL and it will run on a 68040 or some FPGA with same constraints. IRC over TLS, Gemini, JS-less web, Usenet, EMail... not requiring tons of GB.
Nowadays even the Artemis crew can't properly launch Outlook. If I were the IT manager I'd just set Claws-mail/thunderbird with file attachments, MSMTP+ISYNC as backends (caching and batch sending/receiving emails, you know, high end technology inspired by the 80's) and NNCP to relay packets where cuts in space are granted and thus NNCP can just push packets on demand.
The cost? my Atom n270 junk can run NNCP and it's written in damn Golang. Any user can understand Thunderbird/Claws Mail. They don't need to setup anything, the IT manager would set it all and the mail client would run seamlessly, you know, with a fancy GUI for everything.
Yet we are suffering the 'wonders' of vibe coding and Electron programmers pushing fancy tecnology where the old one would just work as it's tested like crazy.
> Also the Amiga's have AmiSSL and it will run on a 68040 or some FPGA with same constraints. IRC over TLS, Gemini, JS-less web, Usenet, EMail... not requiring tons of GB.
The AmiSSL came out long after the C64 was a relic and required hardware that was an order of magnitude more powerful than the C64 ;)