Coincidentally, I bought a 12v car horn yesterday with the intent of wiring it into my ebike's power supply with a little button on my handlebars.
Not because of other cyclists or pedestrians wearing (anc) headphones but because modern cars are so heavily sound-proofed they don't hear a bicycle bell anymore. A recent incident with an inattentive taxi driver in a brand new EV nearly flattening me prompted me to want to pursue this.
I'm still waiting for my cheap AliExpress dc-to-dc step down converter but otherwise I have everything I need and I think it should work. The horn module itself is definitely loud enough: I connected it to a 12v power supply at my desk and jumped out of my chair.
When I was commuting 60k/day on my bike in shitty suburban conditions, I used one of these instead - you get limited use per trip, but you can always fill it up with a CO2 cylinder/bike pump:
That’s a crappy pressure vessel holding 350ml of 80psi air, for about 100J of stored energy. I’m not entirely sure I’d be comfortable with that, especially anywhere with my face in the line of fire it it fails.
I wonder if one of those recently-emerging Chinese electric blowers that sub for canned air would generate enough air volume to sound the horn usefully. Possibly not quickly enough.
I did that, but I used battery - couldn't figure out how to hook up to the e-bike's 50v electrical system (plus the DC-DC converter with high enough current...)
So I am using LiPo 3S, 2200mAh. Works like a charm. I keep it at its storage voltage (3.7-3.8v per cell), and it hardly drained the battery (there is no paracitic drain). Whole thing was like $20.
I had a digital bell from aliexpress on my winter commuter because pogies on the bars prevented a typical dinger. It was very annoying and very effective; my wife referred to it as "the friend maker".
on the rare occasions where I need to loudly indicate my presence to a motor vehicle I wouldn't really want to be moving my hands - if I have time to move a hand to a horn I probably have time to brake/manouvre instead.
Generally in those situations I shout really loudly at the driver, and in general they seem to hear me
I'm very sceptical of their claims that ~780Hz is in some way special, especially the way they represent it graphically. Playing a frequency sweep while wearing WH-1000XM3 headphones, I don't notice any particular drop-off there.
Near where I live, heavy goods vehicles are fitted with reversing indicators that make a "cshh cshh cshh" sound i.e. pulsed white-noise. White noise like that is the hardest for ANC to cancel. Sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Wt1_51EVA
Right? This feels like an "arms race" similar to scraping vs. anti-scraping; countermeasures will be developed, likely due to the action of actors entirely disconnected from what you're doing, but to block something else in the ecosystem... and you'll need to re-engineer your approach entirely. Rinse and repeat.
(The amount of innovation in anti-anti-scraping that's resulted from "sneaker bots" - automated scalping of limited-edition shoe releases - is astounding, and somewhat relevant here in how an environment can become adversarial in ways that impact broad ecosystems. I suppose the equivalent here would be environmental ads that seek to penetrate noise-cancellation in a similar way.)
I suppose, though, that all this is good news for a company that wants to turn your bicycle bell into a subscription product!
The construction site next door is using those vehicles, and they're also a lot more pleasant throughout the day. It's easier to tune out white noise than beeping. The first cshh is a little louder than the others, which is a nice design touch.
Speak for yourself, I can tune out a steady beep much easier than the sound of a seagull being strangled to death. (That's what the ones around here sound like anyway.)
On a more serious note: the loud beeping backup alarms were DESIGNED to be annoying and difficult to miss. I would not be surprised in the least if a study showed these "less annoying" backup alarms correlating to a higher number of children being run over by reversing vehicles.
On my wh-1000xm2, wh-1000xm3, wf-1000xm4 and lastly wf-1000xm5, there is a quite high frequency pitch (usually coincides with some public transport beeps, and some accidental squeaking of doors) that toggles ANC to transparent mode automatically. I remember reading something about this on Sony's support website.
My XM4's always do that at the beeps from the cash register, although I always attributed that to their volume rather than frequency. My theory was that they refuse to produce sound loud enough to cancel the beeps for safety reasons.
This seems to be part of a type of brand marketing where a brand claims it has invented something, but the only thing that ever exists of significant economic value is the attention raised by the promo video / article. Not the thing/service.
I love these types of videos because they create this fiction of how design happens, where people sit around a table with drawings and or come up with beautiful mock-ups (the motion sickness glasses is a good example). Often, a lot of design decisions are super obvious and don't require a lot of sweat and collaboration to come up with, but in videos they're made to appear very difficult as it presents better. And other things are super messy, but you're not going to show that as it's hard to communicate.
In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient.
Structurally, we'd be much better off reducing conflicts between the different tiers of users. I.e. properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down.
With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
>My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there.
In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move".
But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.
My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell.
My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.
I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).
> Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path,
This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).
> A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.
It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass.
Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.
> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds.
In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
> I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way,
I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.
I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'.
At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it.
In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast.
On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.
Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.
> With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing).
I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.
Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette:
Passing a single pedestrian or runner on a quiet day: no bell, coasting for a short bit with a loud free hub (the rotating ratchet element on the rear wheel) alerts the pedestrian to my presence.
Passing a runner: normal ring from a distance so they have knowledge that the bicycle is passing
Passing a cyclist: one loud ring from a distance
Passing a pedestrian walking a dog: two loud rings, one far, one close, so that the pedestrian is aware of the approaching bicycle and he can prevent his dog from running at me/colliding. Many dogs do seem to enjoy a bicycle chase.
Antisocial pedestrians (i.e., walking side-by-side such as to be blocking the path in both directions, preventing the bicyclist from passing): several loud rings of the bell until the antisocial activity has abated. Announcements in my local tongue (not English) that they impede the flow of traffic.
Spending some time in Germany from Holland I notice there is a significant difference in cycling etiquette :)
Especially regarding “passing a cyclist” which also touches on the essential difficulty with having only one “ring” sound.
Always when Germans pass me on the bike and they ring I get slightly annoyed because I interpret it as a “get out of the way” ring, and I feel like there is enough space. But perhaps it’s just the cautious “don’t do anything unexpected” ring.
A Dutch person would rarely ring at another cyclist in the former way. But they also might be less safety focused while cycling (see also: helmet usage). Or we have safer infrastructure already.
On a road bike, however, I too ring at pedestrians “preemptively”. For sure GPs remark of “if you need to ring you’re going too fast” applies here but that’s the essence of road cycling.
Ironically I’m also annoyed when road cyclists ring at me for the same reason.
Just shows the case for having 2 clearly different types of rings.
Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.
If infrastructure is shared it doesn't mean you have more rights to pass than pedestrian.
Moreover, bell as a way to warn doesn't work. Because pedestrians will mostly get startled because of it and can actually do this sudden move you are trying to make them not do.
So if you are on fast vehicle comparing to others in the same infrastructure, you need to drive in a way, that you can't be affected of sudden turn of someone in front of you. Which basically means you need to slow down or give enough space for others to do their sudden moves.
It's not only about preventing accidents (but I do believe it prevents some to attempt answering your question).
It's also about signaling to someone that they might be doing something wrong or they might not be paying attention. For pedestrians it takes significantly less time and distance to stop, for cars, trams, and bicycles, it takes longer.
It happens all the time that pedestrians don't know the customs of a country, they don't recognize bike lines... in that case the cyclists do not need to pump the breaks anytime a clueless tourist gets in front of them... they can ring the bell, signaling:
"yo, it's not how we do it here, please watch out, I'm coming full speed and you are in the wrong, so please look up from your phone and stop right there".
I also had the luck to meet some people thinking they can be on their phone while cycling, drifting into my lane, etc... In that case, a bell is also adequate
"hey, please stop writing a text message while you are on your bike blazing through the city, you are driving as if you were drunk, pay attention please and stop multitasking (you moron)"
If nothing works to change their behavior, of course I'll try my best and hit the brakes safely, but I'd prefer they learned how to move around in the city safely.
My experiences on a motorcycle tell me that if you feel the need to honk you should be focusing on braking and evasive maneuvers instead.
The choice between between teaching some midwit the law and going home in one piece seems crystal clear to me.
In a couple of years of riding I think the horn would have very slightly helped maybe... once or twice. If the other guy would have heard it at all which is doubtful.
If you are a sane person, absolutely not!! You _try_ the bell, if people react, then you go. Many times it just confuses people or people ignore it.
If you are a high-speed maniac and _rely_ on the bell to clear a path for you... then yeah. But you are then also likely to take great risks in general and will probably be in other accidents...
I've been a cyclist in SF and in Amsterdam, both for many years.
In SF I used my bell much more aggressively. It was mainly for cars, if I'm in or entering their blind spot and my spidey sense tells me they are considering an action that places me in danger. For example, we all know when driving when the car in front of us is thinking about merging, even before they indicate (often I feel like I know before they do). I also used it for pedestrians stepping out into the street who are maybe looking past me for oncoming cars but somehow don't see me, or when approaching 'blind' situations like a sharp corner, a driver pulling out of a driveway but there is a tree between us, delivery drivers stepping out from their truck, etc. I can't say how many accidents have been prevented (the person may have eventually looked and seen me), but I can say that my bell has triggered people to look and see me earlier than they were going to had I not rang it.
In Amsterdam my bell is used much more sparingly. It's mostly for tourists stepping into (or considering stepping into) the bike lane. If they are already in the bike lane, I almost always prefer just to slow down a bit and dodge them, as ringing the bell often triggers a deer-caught-in-headlight moment or erratic behavior, which increases the chance of an accident or that I have to come to a full stop. The other situation is to express dissatisfaction at cars blocking bike lanes, cars/bikes not yielding, drivers blocking intersections, or other dangerous behavior. This isn't preventing an accident but I'd argue it is still important, as social control affects how often we make bad decisions. Outside the city I also use my bell to let other cyclists know I'm passing.
So yeah, I'd say bells prevent accidents, but obviously not as well as good biking infrastructure, where pedestrians, bikes, and cars have clear separate spaces, and visibility of cyclists to drivers is high.
> In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient
I have seen a small kid jump from his father's scooter just when I was overtaking them and they decided to stop because he had seen his grandpa or whoever was that old guy on the other side of the bike lane. His father managed to stop him by grabbing his sweater because I had rung my bell a few seconds before he decided to stop but the kid ended up inches from my bicycle. It was at very low speed, almost walking speed yet hitting a bicycle handlebars head first because you turn around without looking still hurts even if the bicycle his stopped.
If I'm driving and I see a young kid like this I always move out away from the curb if possible. So even if they dart out or fall into the road it's not a problem. Actually, same if I'm passing a bunch of parked cars and there is room, since kids can be stupid and emerge from between them.
If someone truly runs into when you're stationary, I'm not sure anyone really has a problem with you in that scenario.
In the UK, an important market for VW group, there are two types of bicycle, one for the proletariat and the other for the bourgeoisie. Due to the k-shaped economy, the proletariat bicycle died a long time ago, to evolve into the 'Lime bike' in places such as London. In the past, companies such as Raleigh provided excellent proletariat bicycles, and the working man could afford them for his kids and himself. Of course, he would prefer a car, because cars are high status whereas a steel/aluminium bicycle with straight bars is not.
The bourgeoisie bicycle is a relatively recent phenomenon, and anything totally impractical and made of carbon fibre qualifies as bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie bicycle is also too expensive to lock up in town, plus you need all the clobber to go with it (lycra).
Every bourgeoisie bicycle is owned by a car dependent person. They don't begin their ride at their front door, and their journeys are not useful or with purpose beyond cycling. Their bicycles get strapped onto the back of their car, or placed in the trunk, with wheels removed. These people don't need locks for their bicycles as they have a two tonne steel box to secure their bicycle in. You also get things like power-meters with these bikes, plus the owner has to wear a special polystyrene hat, at the insistence of their mother.
Skoda are selling to those people that spend £5K+ on their toy carbon fibre bicycle. They know the realities of car dependency.
> Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake
Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic.
With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if they still haven't noticed the oncoming bike.
If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money (especially for bike delivery workers, but I also hate having to sharply decelerate for people glued to their screen or otherwise completely unaware of their surroundings even if I'm not in a rush), so you can take a guess as to whether "just reducing your speed" is practicable.
> If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money
Well this is a bit of an appeal to consequences. I would say (a) this is a very good reason to build dedicated infra, and (b) if something ever does happen, a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well, so be careful with it... even if in practice it's how you consider it.
I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario.
Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path.
The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.
>> properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
I ride a lot in traffic and the problem with segregated infrastructure (i.e. bike lanes) is the interfaces and constriction. Pedestrians step off the sidewalk or out of cars into constrained bike lanes all the time and there's no where to go; cars turn across bike lanes with the same problem.
You can't always do it, but if you can eliminate the speed differential I believe riding in traffic is much safer than a bike lane, at least until you get enough bike volume to keep drivers aware. THat's hard to do in most of NA or year round.
There are a lot of runners on mixed use paths wearing headphones these days. They are an absolute danger to overtaking bikes. A bell they would hear would be useful.
To me, in a path with no priority to the bike, the only danger are cyclist who think they have priority and can overtake people at speed.
Being able to get the attention of runners improves the situation, reducing the speed while circulating on a mixed path solves it completely. If you wanna go fast get on a bike lane or the road.
Pedestrians are not danger, they are victims! Cyclist should slow down, while performing dangerous overtaking, and not crash into them! Same rules like with cars!
They certainly can, yes. Many crashes can be avoided if both parties slam on the brakes or swerve, not not quite if only one does. Also they're useful in parking lots when some dumbass is about to back right into you.
I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake.
My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out something like "can I get past, please?" or if an immediate response is required (e.g. ped blindly stepping into the road ahead of me) then yelling "Oi!" can really surprise them and make them notice you. I'm also a fan of using "Beep, beep" if a ped is on cycle infrastructure (active travel infrastructure is probably a better term) and I want to pretend that I'm an impatient driver.
I think the human voice is far superior to a bell as you can tailor the message for the situation and you don't have to move a hand away from the brakes to do so. (Using your voice is also a very good idea when approaching a horse and rider - horses know about humans and don't get freaked out if you call ahead "Morning!" or something cheery and appropriate).
I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake.
The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.
In the scenario presented (London, mostly not segregated bike paths), the solution is for the cyclist to ride in a way they're not endangering pedestrians.
There's even a fairly recent UK law (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-change...) that more or less says in a collision, the "stronger" road user is at fault unless proven otherwise. That applies to car v. cyclist as much as cyclist v. pedestrian.
That seems to be exactly the case. As a pedestrian, my problem is the cyclists who think the sidewalk is for going faster than the speed limit and the bike lane is for pedestrians to dodge into. As a driver, it's cyclists who think "you can treat stop signs as yields if there's no traffic" means "stop signs are go signs, yield signs are go faster signs, there's no such thing as a red light". I'm sure if I biked, I'd be complaining about cars not seeing me and pedestrians being unpredictable and hogging the sidewalk. I'm sure if I was a train driver, I'd rant about cars blocking the tracks!
Two of the three clips clearly show a bike-lane blocked by pedestrians. The third looks like a shared space - but blocked in a way where it seems reasonable to ask for space by ringing the bell?
> the "stronger" road user is at fault unless proven otherwise
In general I agree with this, but a lot a lot depends on how "unless proven otherwise" is interpreted.
If a driver is typically at fault when a pedestrian or cyclist unexpectedly moves into their path then it seems like that practically restricts cars to speeds close to biking or walking in many cities.
Similarly, if a cyclist is typically at fault when a pedestrian unexpectedly moves into their path then it seems like that restricts bikes to speeds close to walking in many cities.
This effectively pedestrianizes car lanes and bike lanes which would be lovely in some areas, but it also restricts travel to walking speeds which also has downsides if enforced across an entire city.
> People cycling, riding a horse or driving a horse-drawn vehicle should respect the safety of people walking in these spaces, but people walking should also take care not to obstruct or endanger them.
Political cyclists hate this because they think anybody who complains is just a car driver concern trolling, but having been hit by a cyclist I can attest to it being a real problem. Sure I wasn't in real risk of dying, but I was bruised and scraped up for a week after that. I've done my fair share of road cycling in my years, I don't do it now but I still cycle on trails. The way some cyclists push back on any criticism at all is very ideological, and a real problem for not just pedestrians (and drivers) but cyclists too, because the outspoken attitudes and public stunts of political cyclists breed a lot of contempt for cyclists broadly speaking, to the point where normies groan when I say I spent my weekend going on a trip with my bike, and still act weird when I explain I was on a rail-to-trail not clogging up a highway.
It's one thing when you're a fit adult male and get hit by an idiot cycling recklessly on the pavement, it's another if you're a small child or frail through sickness or old age. I've seen a couple of very near misses that would have ended very badly for the pedestrian through no fault of their own.
Saying this it's mostly teenagers in the idiot role from what I've seen and they are reckless by default.
Did you consider that your talking about GROUPS of people where _some_ individuals from ALL groups regularly behave poorly and deserve criticism and action?
Or is that too much of a nuance against tribal thinking?
I think it's time for some sort of a safety standard for a sound frequency to be reserved exclusively for alarm/alert use and that ANC systems have to let through.
It goes without saying, use of said frequency should be prohibited for other purposes, especially marketing.
I think this is a really bad idea unless paired with some regime that penalizes inappropiate use of alarms - and most societies don't treat noise pollution as a real problem. For example, people honk all the time even when there are no safety issues. Or have misconfigured home/car alarms. Outlawing using ANC for blocking "fake alarms" only makes the problem worse.
I don't know… If I'm sitting at home or at a cafe working, I want my headphones to block all bicycle bells and ambulances on the street. Those in traffic could perhaps just turn their ANC off?
as soon they do that all kind of companies will start abusing it, for example the sound of all smart phone notification will use exactly that frequency
Regular alarm sounds already do that, because above 1kHz or so it's the cushioning in the device that does the majority of the cancelling. There's a dip in effectiveness before that because to cancel noise effectively it's best to have a latency lower than a quarter of the wave's period.
Also ANC works best on wide-spectrum sounds, so any kind of siren or the cries of a child will go through, as the spectrum is a series of narrow peaks.
Ha, I had the same idea before I realized it’ll just be used for ads. It would be cool for pilots’ announcements on a flight, or approaching stations on the train etc. But CVS will use it to tell you to download their app and enroll in ExtraCare Rewards. Or “Did you know you may be due for more than fourteen vaccines all at no cost to you?”
It's almost hilarious that such efforts are spent on bicycle bells while emergency vehicles are featuring deafeningly loud alarms to penetrate the sound isolation of cars.
The presentation looks like marketing overkill, their solution looks pretty simple. It‘s just two trills „Trillerwerk“ bells combined. It was the standard in Germany until the late 1990s https://youtu.be/-mW7dWHDivo
The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary?
In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required.
Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while cycling on my Bose Quiet Comfort II, as the ANC will try (and fail) to cancel the noise from the wind. I don't think this is a solved problem? So for bicycle-to-bicycle alerting, this also seems overkill.
Yes, company Škoda is from Czech Republic where we have shared-use paths for cyclists and pedestrians. It is not "necessary". You should not be wearing noise canceling headphones while being in traffic - it makes you more liable in case of accidents.
I don't know why, but sometimes this is done intentionally.
In my (Dutch) city, there is this infuriating piece of road where the bicycle path suddenly gets routed onto the kerb, intentionally mixing bikes and pedestrians. I believe the theory is that bikes will go slower so pedestrians don't need to worry about crossing the road as much or something.
Predictably, lots bikes are taken by surprise, either brake hard and suddenly or fly through pedestrians (who the biker thinks are in their bike lane, because they would be two meters earlier).
In my experience, when bikes and pedestrians meet, one of the two groups is in the wrong place and should be watching out/slowing down and waiting.
The example video shows various instances of pedestrians walking in bike lanes (and seemingly being surprised at the sudden appearance of a bike there). You can't fix stupid, but at least you can tell them to get off the bike path.
I dislike the smug condescending tone of your comment. Not everyone lives in the "cycle utopia" Netherlands. For some of those that don't live there, this could be a game changer and life saver since its easier to buy a bell than wait for your city to build you segregated cycle lanes.
Personally, I see no use for this bell since in Austria bicycles share the road space with cars, trucks and trams rather than pedestrians, which could be more dangerous, and what I would need is a bicycle bell that could penetrate car enclosures so that drivers would get off their phones and pay attention to the stuff around them.
Yes, I know, ideally there should be dedicated cycle lanes only for bicycles but nothing in life is ever ideal, and the city isn't gonna do that anytime soon since that would mean completely eliminating car traffic on the narrow streets, witch would be political suicide, so a bell would be an instant life saver.
What's your easy technical solution to improve common sense, then? Or is it the all time classic of "just improving society"? I'm all ears for your ideas.
I have to agree here. The amount of cyclists I see with full over the ear headphones on-- if these guys are blarning tunes, there is no way they'll every hear the traffic around them. Extremely dangerous.
Agreed, however, what do you think about my 'dream bicycle bell'?
I replaced my bell recently because mine had developed a form of 'tourettes' after a bit of plastic fell off. So I did survey the marketplace for something 'more me'.
This made me think about what the ideal bell should be. I reckon that you should be able to buy tuned bells, as in A - G with 440hz 'C' being in there somewhere. Maybe there could be different colours of the rainbow for each frequency.
This would be quite tuneful if I was riding with family or friends, with them also having a tuned bell on their bicycles.
Obviously no use for penetrating noise cancelling headphones, however, I don't think these are an issue. If someone is zoned out on headphones then it is on them if they have no spacial awareness. If they don't hear the bell, then that is on them.
I also think big auto is patronising, to think they have anything to offer the cyclist apart from death and pollution. What would the car dependent ones know about shared path etiquette?
Nowadays the biggest danger to me on shared paths are the Uber Eats delivery guys with their electric motorbikes. Early evenings can be quite risky with those zombies, particularly within half a mile of a McDonalds. They pose a true 'kinetic' risk that the jogger wearing headphones does not.
People shouldn't really be walking around in public with ANC on. It's not safe. Not a simple problem to solve except maybe to inform people better upon buying/setting up ANC-enabled devices.
Seems to be some misunderstanding of what bike bells are for here...
A bell is helpful in a situation where a pedestrian is not aware of an approaching bike. The bell informs the pedestrian of two things:
1. That there is an approaching bike.
2. Roughly were the bike is approaching from.
The hope is that the pedestrian will then behave in a predictable way to allow a safe pass by the bike. In almost all cases the pedestrian will be able to simply continue doing what they were doing before they heard the bell.
If a pedestrian can not hear bike bells, for whatever reason, that is not a problem. They can just stay consistent with the centreline of the path/road/way. They then have a responsibility to shoulder check when shifting from side to side.
People use their ears to navigate traffic (as non-car-users) much more than they realize. There's a reason kids need to be drilled in "look both ways before crossing the street" - you can hear that there's no car coming, what's the problem? There's a reason electric cars need to make that strange noise so you can, in fact, hear them coming. Absolutely a headphone user, with not only ANC to reduce external noises but loud music to mask them, is missing a primary sense for navigating traffic. Absolutely these things increase accidents from minor (someone walking into the path of a cyclist on a multi-use path, oblivious to bells and callouts) to major.
But can that bell penetrate loud music? How many people really walk around with ANC headphones just as a "cone of silence" device?
Next challange: Place a camera in front of the bike that scans approaching pedestrians. Calculate their head position and trajectory. Use directional speakers and focused sound beams to focus the ~780Hz sound towards the head(s) of the pedestrian(s). Now that you are not bothering the environment as much, you can increase the volume as well.
I would love that but not so much for pedestrians as for cars that don't see me on my bike. Ideally, the "bell" would automatically honk at them very loudly when they get too close.
Overall this bell seems like the wrong solution, and it took me a while to realize not every country has outlawed headphone wearing for bicyclists, something I guess I took for granted.
It doesn't make sense for a car driven to use headphones, so not sure why it'd make sense for other vehicle-users to use them either, as you say, we really do use our ears to help navigate traffic so allowing people to be so careless seems... Careless?
You can turn up your car stereo and mow over pedestrians undisturbed in your two ton death machine yet I'm not allowed to cycle on a bicycle-only path with with a podcast and transparency mode enabled? For my own safety? Safety from car drivers that fell asleep driving with their stereo on?
Don't know where you live, but where I live it isn't legal to play so loud music that you cannot hear the outside, especially if it's so loud you cannot hear other car horns. So no, neither should be allowed, because again, we use our hearing when we're in traffic to help our other senses.
Mostly for others safety, and I guess if it helps you; for your safety too.
It's hard for me to understand why people choose to walk around in public wearing headphones. I'm aware that it's incredibly common, but you put yourself at risk of theft, accident, and of course the mild hearing loss that accompanies _any_ frequent headphone usage. In the case of both theft and accident, you cannot hear your assailant coming, and miss the queues that would otherwise keep you safe.
"Loud" is a bit subjective, but in my experience most people make their volume far too loud. Even moreso if you're attempting to overcome the background sound around you.
The articles below discuss both volume and duration. It's also worth checking out the OSHA guidelines which pretty cleanly show the relationship between duration and volume. (ie, "safer" volumes still cause damage with enough duration.)
Same reason I listen to music or podcasts in the car.
I am very lucky to live in a city/country where risks of theft from my person is low - when I lived for 20 years in London I never once felt unsafe listening to music.
The closest was two young men got very close to me on the tube, when I was playing on my brand new Hong Kong imported PSP - but I just took my headphones off. I think they were just interested as most people hadn't seem one in the flesh yet.
I can't say I know of anyone personally who suffered theft or accident caused by them listening to music on headphones.
When I cycled a lot, I had a small speaker strapped to my handlebars rather than wearing headphones, as I liked being able to hear cars around me - but when I was younger I regularly cycled in headphones, and was still able to hear enough of the road around me to not feel that I was missing anything.
Remember, we don't make drivers drive around with no music and their windows open, so that they are better able to hear cyclists...
I know a few people that simply wear headphones to help with managing sensory overload, so I wouldn't assume that having headphones on is a guarantee of listening to something (though still likely to be strongly correlated).
As far as assailants, a skilled ninja wouldn't be detected even if their target weren't wearing headphones...
It's a definitive statement that you don't want to talk to people. In London not wearing headphones ironically means you become a target for people who want your attention. And it blocks out the otherwise very loud cityscape.
Where I used to live it was smart not to wear headphones, being it for muggers, drunk drivers, random shootings or crazy dogs. It was not a chill place no.
This bell would be illegal in Denmark, where our laws clearly state that you are only allowed one signal giving device and that any signal giving devices attached to vehicles (including bikes) can only produce one constant sound.
Not entirely the same in Norway, but the rule as written is roughly translated "Sound signal: A bike should have a bell. Other signalling devices are prohibited".
Doesn't stop me from using an AirZound or digital airhorn. Saved me countless times. Like a bell is heard by a driver blasting their stereo while checking their phone, slowly veering into the cycle lane.
Really? I would have guessed you could argue that it qualifies as „one signal giving device“ since it is one single piece of equipment (ie the horn in a car also has many parts, but it‘s presumably fine) and also that it „only produces one constant sound“, where that sound is composed of different frequencies (again, car horns probably don‘t have a pure tone in Denmark either, right?).
After 10+ year biking in Amsterdam I never use my bicycle bell. Instead I try to predict their trajectory and steer around it, way more predictable because everyone responds differently
Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist.
When bikes have to go through areas where people walk freely, they need to limit their speed to a walking pace.
People should not wear headphones (noise-cancelling or not) when going through traffic as pedestrians. Take them off when crossing!
People should not hear loud music when driving - max is normal speaking voice level. Bike drivers should never hear any music, let alone wearing headphones. Behind-ear speakers on low could be a compromise.
> Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist.
This is the reality in many cities, if it weren't for the hopefully not surprising fact that people don't always obey traffic laws perfectly.
No, you didn't. And restricting cyclists and pedestrians will not result in even small dent in the numbers of maimed or killed people in traffic. It's one mode of transport that's responsible for the vast amount of it, and that's the motorized one propelling several tonnes.
> and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist
And cars have no business being on other roads as long as highways exist ;)
I meant biking accidents this product is obviously trying to solve.
> And cars have no business being on other roads as long as highways exist ;)
Biking lanes are not comparable to highways. Where I'm living, if you bike on car lanes when biking lanes exist, or if you bike on sidewalks at all, you get a hefty fine depending on the situation and if you possess one, you get points on your driving license.
Exceptions are turning, leaving the road, the lane being blocked by a clueless driver etc. obviously.
Cars are also not allowed on biking lanes, neither are pedestrians. Same exceptions apply.
How do we enforce seatbelts? (1) Assume the public aren't stupid. (2) Assume the public aren't murderers. (3) Explain the risk-benefit analysis through informative videos like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_(1998_film).
People can shout "domestic terror" all they like, but if it's not true, it's not true.
If "shouldn't" worked we'd have no industrial accidents without any safety measures, no unwanted pregnancies and in general would more or less achieve heaven on Earth.
Unfortunately, the UK seems almost incapable of building usable cycle infrastructure (possibly excepting London). Your idea is just a recipe for magic protective paint and even more abuse of cyclists who don't want to be forced to use ridiculously badly designed infrastructure. e.g. Here in Bristol, we have an infamous shared cycle/pedestrian pavement along Coronation Rd that has a few trees completely blocking the cycle side which just means conflict between pedestrians and cyclists who have to fight over the scraps left over from motorists taking most of the space (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4462522,-2.6064792,3a,75y,80...).
It's unfortunate that this is necessary. It should be obvious that wearing noise cancelling headphones in trafic, including as a pedestrian, is a bad idea.
I'm legally blind, so I have my own bias here, but I think people really over-rely on sight. If you do want to listen to something while walking around a city, I can highly recommend bone conduction headphones, that keep your ears unblocked.
I find the "Heard five seconds earlier, the difference between a serious collision and stepping aside" take hilarious. As if there is no other way to prevent a collision in five seconds other than the pedestrian getting out of the way.
As much as I get the urge to plow through pedestrians on bike paths (and stay proudly in the way of bikes on pedestrian paths), in real life, normal people don't do that kind of thing. Bikes have brakes for a reason.
Yeah, this while video I honestly couldn’t stop chuckling because it’s built on assumption that bicycles somehow either can’t brake at all or will take five business days to brake like a freight train.
Though looking at Berlin cyclists the assumption seems to be true - so many of them insist on just plowing headfirst into an obstacle instead of braking that I start to think that the video was made by one of such cyclists.
Cool idea. But bizarre that they worked with Deliveroo. Bike bells were designed for a time when cyclists travelled at speeds where you could safely get out of the way.
Most "independent" cyclists do cycle safely.
But delivery riders for delivery platforms commonly use illegally modified e-bikes. Platforms have the GPS data. They must know.
They could make huge improvements in safety by actively preventing the use of illegally modified e-bikes that travel too fast.
>They could make huge improvements in safety by actively preventing the use of illegally modified e-bikes that travel too fast.
Or by regulating bicycle food delivery services so thatheir employees' continued employment and wage magnitude doesn't hinge quite so thoroughly on how rapidly they deliver.
I nearly put a passive aggressive "employees" in my post, but that would mix concerns. But having drivers as "contractors", and dodging employers' responsibilities and liabilities, is really the root of this all.
It is amazing they openly shared their findings [0], but one thing I am missing is what this design would cost if put into mass production. To the biggest layman possible, it reads like while the design is clever and would be more expensive by virtue of more materials/size alone, it's not impractical, but maybe someone more informed on this type of manufacturing can correct my ignorance. If that's the case, hopefully we'll see these designs on the market soon as even with music+ANC, I have found certain sounds to be able to easily penetrate through when listening, though that is purely subjective and I don't have my music earbleedingly loud...
This might seem weird coming from a car manufacturer but Skoda is a big sponsor of cycling races, most notably of the Tour de France and other ASO races. And as explained in the footer, they started out with building bicycles in the 19th century.
A pedestrian shouldn't need to be able to hear to be safe from cyclists. Focusing on headphones is ignoring that the same dangers are being imposed on deaf people and people with otherwise bad hearing. If a cyclist needs to use the bell for safety, they should hit the brakes.
I’m sure Android and iOS could add some AI feature to let some specific noises in the headset when needed (baby cries when enabled, smoke detector alarms, bike/car bells, etc). Simply stop the music for the duration of the specific noise and replay it. That would be a cool use of AI.
So you don't even need Android or iOS for this feature and it's been a thing on certain headsets for a while; both my Sony headphones and buds do this.
It also has an integration with the phone which can add GPS awareness but it works fine without it in my experience.
And seems to sound like a normal bell, or maybe that's just my ears. I guess I can see why they didn't put it up front, but that was also all I wanted.
I have noticed I can make a less sharp sound with my bike bell by ringing it a certain way. I use this to let pedestrians know I am coming but that they don't have to jump out of the way.
I genuinely had a similar thought a few days ago while riding my motorbike; I had my AirPods on with noise cancelling, and I was like: I wish there was something that would alert me to horns/bells ... not that AirPods are super efficient at cancelling background noise but still!
hopefully this is because it's a prototype, but doesn't solve the #1 problem with these type of thumb-lever rotating bells: everything (including the axle) is plastic and they break if you look at them funny. The hammer-type with plastic hammers or hinges don't work either; maybe solve the "actually make a noise" problem first.
my Bose quite comfort headphones will still allow any non-regular noise through, I believe that is by design for this very reason. Do other brands not do this?
I carry air horn. Great for dogs and aggressive cyclists. Pedestrians have no obligation to jump into ditch, to clear walking path for speeding cyclists!
In Germany we have rules, and one of those rules is that pedestrians on the sidewalk who are in the cyclepath (usually a too-subtle red stone) do, in fact, have to get out of the way for cyclists.
I imagine there's also a rule about directing airhorns against law abiding cyclists.
On a serious note there’s a marketing problem in my view: who out there who chooses to buy a bell even considers that their might be a loudness problem? It’s not immediately obvious that I need this and I’m sure there’s a premium price attached.
Here's my hot take: just get rid of bicycle bells and horns altogether. When's the last time you heard one and were usefully informed about some behavioral change to avoid accident? How often does that happen as opposed to needless use of the bell/horn, or not noticing it for whatever reason (let's be charitable and exclude use of ANC headphones, but include general noise levels and boy-who-cried-wolf). How often is it just a jump scare, making traffic less safe?
Just ride/drive a bit more thoughtfully so you don't hurt people, even if they're deaf.
Bike bells are useful for me most weekends to let me know there's a bike soon to overtake me while I'm skating.
Headphones on folks while they're out walking is ridiculous and antisocial and if they get hit because they didn't hear a bell then they had it coming. I only use a single earbud at a time so I don't lose my situational awareness entirely, but even that can still wash out the rest of the world noise pretty well.
It's not about the cyclists wearing ANC headsets (which is already prohibited at least in Euro countries), but about pedestrians wearing them. Another problem altogether.
In effect they are, even if not directly. There are requirements to stay aware of your surroundings. If you cause an accident by blocking all sounds, I totally can see insurance companies claiming this is your own responsibility and refusing to cover.
My trick after biking 10+ years in Amsterdam. Never use your bicycle bell, instead try to predict their trajectory and bike around it.
Ringing your bell is always a gamble because everyone responds differently
i’m on airpods pro 3, and it’s far from producing noise-cancellation so powerful as to require such measures. perhaps if I’m listening to heavy music at ear-damaging levels. maybe my hearing is too sensitive.
That's nice and all, but the onus is really on the person walking on shared paths with noise cancelling headphones. My bell works fine, and I ring it before passing peds as the law requires, so I don't intend to waste money on a new bell anytime soon.
I don't know where you're from, but in Germany for example, there are countless situations where cyclists and pedestrians share the same space, or pedestrians can (or just do…) cross bicycle lanes. I'm a very law-abiding cyclist since witnessing a few horrible accidents, and yet I encounter situations with headphone-wearing pedestrians regularly. Often I'll ring my bell to no avail, until driving right up to them, and they still won't hear me. This is really frustrating; I'm definitely in the market for this.
I am aware that most countries do not have dedicated roads for cyclists, but that doesn't mean that cyclists should be using sidewalks. When I go out and walk on the sidewalk, I expect to be able to just walk safely without having to think about potential riders of bicycles or other things that people ride on sidewalks.
If just slowing down helps to prevent an accident, not sure what the bell would be good for - except for signaling your frustration to everyone around you
> I'm a very law-abiding cyclist since witnessing a few horrible accidents, and yet I encounter situations with headphone-wearing pedestrians regularly. Often I'll ring my bell to no avail, until driving right up to them, and they still won't hear me. This is really frustrating; I'm definitely in the market for this.
I’m guessing some law (law-abiding) gives you the right to bother people who are using their own feet instead of wheels because you want to pass them and they should have to actively watch out for you and yield to you? Okay, that part is fine. But I don’t see how it is nice or, I dunno, ethical.
In my experience (in my locale) as a cyclist you either give pedestrians a wide enough berth, dismount so that you can pass them if it is crowded and there is no passage, or use the vehicular road.
I remember violating this one time when I belled someone that I wanted to pass on the sidewalk. But I was a child at the time. Even more self-centered than I am now.
These seeming rules for yielding to cyclists are worse than the laws and norms when cars interact with bicycles, by the way. At least where I am: cars never honk cyclists. They have to wait for them or find a window to pass them safely. They can’t honk them into the ditch or something.
As a cyclist in London, I’ve hit one pedestrian: they stepped backward(!) into a cycle lane. I had nowhere to go, as there was a curb on the other side. Pedestrian behaviour is just totally wild with respect to cycle lanes, a lot of them are just totally oblivious. If you cycle, you will come across people walking along or stepping into dedicated cycle lanes several times during the average commute.
At least here in Austria, I honestly rarely, if ever, see them do that. Either roads or dedicated/mixed designated cycle paths. We do have enforcement even against cyclists, though more than anything, that catches all the "unlocked" e-bikes, because cycling on the sidewalks is not a thing anyone does.
Even with bikes being off the sidewalk, there is need for a quick way of getting others pedestrians attention.
e.g.: In Amsterdam you cross biking lanes to cross the roads sometimes, or bike lanes and sidewalks are so integrated, you can wander into them without noticing.
Being tired in a crowded street in rainy weather doesn't help either.
This is always an odd one, as it’s the people who look like they just found a bike in a skip and decided to ride around here that cycle on the pavements.
Edit 2: I originally didn’t think of the case when you want to warn pedestrians that you are passing (without asking them to give way) in case they decide to switch direction without looking if there is any incoming entities. That seems legitimate to me. Although giving a wide enough berth might be better than doing it routinely (that could amount to a lot of noise eventually).
Edit: Since people seem to go either way: It is my understanding that in my part of the world (in Scandinavia) cyclists do not have the right of way on sidewalks (which means they can’t bell people away). They also (and I know this one) do not have the right of way while cycling across road crossings. Something that most cyclists, in my experience, violate all the time.
Quite. It drives me up the wall when cyclists not only use the sidewalk close enough to me to practically graze me (pedestrian), but expect me to actively pay attention and yield to them. Use the road, dummy (there are scarce few bicycle lanes).
I use regular headphones (not over-ear and not really noise canc.) on the sidewalk but take them off when I am crossing the street. And I of course am mindful of other pedestrians. But I’m not gonna take them off because some two-wheeler thinks they can ram into me unless I jump out of the way on the sidewalk.
Well, sure, as soon as infrastructure exists so the alternative isn't "get run over by a homicidal driver". And actual infrastructure, not painted lines that typically get filled up with double-parking cars.
this was not really an issue before food delivery apps came into fashion
btw. kids up until certain age can pretty much in all countries ride bike legally on sidewalk, are there any countries where 8yo can't ride bike on sidewalk?
It's a problem in the US where bicycle food delivery is really rare. Even in places with good bike lanes, they'll often prefer the sidewalk because if there is some sort of obstacle in the bike lane (e.g. a car that parked illegally), it won't jump out of the way for them like a pedestrian with a sense of self-preservation, which would mean they might have to slow down.
I've noticed some trains are playing extremely loud announcements (Elizabeth line for example) which makes me think they're trying to penetrate headphones and earphones
Guess why I wear noise cancelling headphones on trains? Because of the excessive announcements!
(I mean seriously excessive. Because in the UK the answer to everything is to create another announcement or poster)
Absolutely crazy to be out in traffic with headphones, lead alone noise cancelling ones. I've never even dared to ride my bike on trails with earbuds, the whole thing seems crazy.
750 Hz. Baby crying sound is around 300-400 Hz and let me tell you my airpods pro definitely let me hear the baby cry. I think Apple built that as an obvious safety feature.
Interestingly, all the shrillness noises (chalkboard, balloon or polystyrene screech) are in similar frequency too.
> In real-world trials conducted on the streets of London in February, in cooperation with Deliveroo couriers, the bell proved so effective that couriers expressed a desire to keep it.
Of course they would, because a lot of them either don’t have any bell, or have a shitty ping-ping bell that doesn’t produce good sound.
I always hate having my headphones on ANC on the street. It makes me feel really exposed and disconnected. I tend to use transparency when out and about.
The problem with headphones is not noise cancellation. It’s the fact they play music.
My regular Widek bell penetrates ANC, but when there’s music, ANC or not, it’s hard to hear. I’m struggling to believe the claims this bell is going to be significantly better.
If this bell gets through ANC then yes it will help people with ANC. It's not an all or nothing situation, you hear it further away for each increase in loudness.
Also, ANC let's you reduce your music volume for the same signal to noise ratio.
Living in a city you cannot stand so much that you wear noise cancelling headphones at all times. Commuting to work that you hate and manoeuvring between zombies looking at their phones, wearing noise cancelling headphones, and occasional cars recklessly opening doors or joining the traffic without looking in the mirrors. You even forgot the original goal of saving money because the rent eats 50% of the net salary and work eats every will to live. Here it is - the fruit of your glorious education and mean by which your mortgage is paid is bicycle bell. Thanks for reminding me to stay away from this miserable mess.
Oh great let’s have even more noise pollution because pedestrians won’t get out of the way of cyclists who are trying to beat their personal best time on their commute to work.
It wouldn't be a problem if pedestrians weren't blocking cycling paths completely while apparently forgetting their hearing aids at home. Some people have even less situational awareness than common sense.
I’m more afraid of cyclists than of cars. I know exactly where the road starts and end, I know there are traffic lights drivers and pedestrians usually respect, so it’s very unlikely that I can get hit by a car. And Im talking about myself, not about the average person (I know stats may say otherwise)
But cyclists can ride in the pedestrian lane, bike lanes and pedestrians lanes are not easily distinguishable (if you are visiting a new city/country for example, and/or the painting of the lanes disappear over time) compared to roads, you typically can hear cars/motorbikes coming (though with electric cars that’s less common) while bikes are very silent, and last but not least, typically there is certain hierarchy when it comes to cars and pedestrians (at least in Europe): pedestrians come first. That’s not the case with bikes (which based on my experience, they share the same level of importance with pedestrians in the streets)
More or less at the time when electric bicycles weighing over 20kg and moving over 30kmh started to drive on sidewalks, I started to avoid living in big cities.
What if you would rather stay in the bicycle lane instead of terrorizing pedestrians? Quite a lot of taxes were paid for those lanes. Use them, and stay out of my headset.
Coincidentally, I bought a 12v car horn yesterday with the intent of wiring it into my ebike's power supply with a little button on my handlebars.
Not because of other cyclists or pedestrians wearing (anc) headphones but because modern cars are so heavily sound-proofed they don't hear a bicycle bell anymore. A recent incident with an inattentive taxi driver in a brand new EV nearly flattening me prompted me to want to pursue this.
I'm still waiting for my cheap AliExpress dc-to-dc step down converter but otherwise I have everything I need and I think it should work. The horn module itself is definitely loud enough: I connected it to a 12v power supply at my desk and jumped out of my chair.
Be careful with your ears! (And those of others)
A unexpected loud noise recently caused me to get tinnitus and hyperacusis, and trust me, you don't want either of them!
You know a diagnose is bad when Wikipedia lists suicidal thoughts as a common side effect....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis
I want to see a bike with a train horn. Cars do it all the time. [1][2][3][4] illegal and highly satisfying
People have used drills+pumps to drive similar hand-held horns at football games so it is doable.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKgg5iCw_c
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enF0m6J7g2w [Tiny car with train horn]
[3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w31s5NsoOyg
[4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLfD1AFsb1I
Oh yeah... the good old 3 or 4 tone "train" honrs from Cadillacs
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/are-you-tired-of-your-wi...
When I was commuting 60k/day on my bike in shitty suburban conditions, I used one of these instead - you get limited use per trip, but you can always fill it up with a CO2 cylinder/bike pump:
https://www.hpvelotechnik.com/en/recumbent-trikes-bikes/acce...
It is loud.
That’s a crappy pressure vessel holding 350ml of 80psi air, for about 100J of stored energy. I’m not entirely sure I’d be comfortable with that, especially anywhere with my face in the line of fire it it fails.
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> When I was commuting 60k/day on my bike in shitty suburban conditions
Here I thought my 4.5 mile (7.25 km) bike commute was a bit long...
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Can confirm, AirZound is great!
Yeah I had something like this for several years. Works really well for cars
I wonder if one of those recently-emerging Chinese electric blowers that sub for canned air would generate enough air volume to sound the horn usefully. Possibly not quickly enough.
I did that, but I used battery - couldn't figure out how to hook up to the e-bike's 50v electrical system (plus the DC-DC converter with high enough current...)
So I am using LiPo 3S, 2200mAh. Works like a charm. I keep it at its storage voltage (3.7-3.8v per cell), and it hardly drained the battery (there is no paracitic drain). Whole thing was like $20.
I pondered doing that but thought it would agitate other road users so decided against.
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mm, if i can't get it to work with the dc-dc converter i'll definitely go that route, good idea
If diy doesn’t work I’ve been using loud bicycle horn and it works great.
https://loudbicycle.com/
Gah! mini usb instead of USB C. Love the concept but it is remarkable how long bike accessories have been holding out on USBC.
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I’ve got one of these fwiw, and it’s outstanding.
for your safety, when people hear a car horn, they’re going to be looking for a car.
It should make a ring-ring sound but at 120 decibels?
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> I bought a 12v car horn yesterday with the intent of wiring it into my ebike's power supply
Putting an aerosol fog horn (available from boating supply shops) in the bikes water bottle holder is much simpler, louder and more effective.
if you ever want an upgrade look into nautilus air horns. I had one on my 250cc Vespa that would clear an intersection.
Needs like 18 amps if that tells you anything.
I had a digital bell from aliexpress on my winter commuter because pogies on the bars prevented a typical dinger. It was very annoying and very effective; my wife referred to it as "the friend maker".
on the rare occasions where I need to loudly indicate my presence to a motor vehicle I wouldn't really want to be moving my hands - if I have time to move a hand to a horn I probably have time to brake/manouvre instead.
Generally in those situations I shout really loudly at the driver, and in general they seem to hear me
Squeeze horns are usually loud enough to be heard by cars in my experience.
I'm very sceptical of their claims that ~780Hz is in some way special, especially the way they represent it graphically. Playing a frequency sweep while wearing WH-1000XM3 headphones, I don't notice any particular drop-off there.
Near where I live, heavy goods vehicles are fitted with reversing indicators that make a "cshh cshh cshh" sound i.e. pulsed white-noise. White noise like that is the hardest for ANC to cancel. Sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Wt1_51EVA
Right? This feels like an "arms race" similar to scraping vs. anti-scraping; countermeasures will be developed, likely due to the action of actors entirely disconnected from what you're doing, but to block something else in the ecosystem... and you'll need to re-engineer your approach entirely. Rinse and repeat.
(The amount of innovation in anti-anti-scraping that's resulted from "sneaker bots" - automated scalping of limited-edition shoe releases - is astounding, and somewhat relevant here in how an environment can become adversarial in ways that impact broad ecosystems. I suppose the equivalent here would be environmental ads that seek to penetrate noise-cancellation in a similar way.)
I suppose, though, that all this is good news for a company that wants to turn your bicycle bell into a subscription product!
I don't see why this would become an "arms race." There's no particular competitive value in filtering out this ONE sound.
The construction site next door is using those vehicles, and they're also a lot more pleasant throughout the day. It's easier to tune out white noise than beeping. The first cshh is a little louder than the others, which is a nice design touch.
Speak for yourself, I can tune out a steady beep much easier than the sound of a seagull being strangled to death. (That's what the ones around here sound like anyway.)
On a more serious note: the loud beeping backup alarms were DESIGNED to be annoying and difficult to miss. I would not be surprised in the least if a study showed these "less annoying" backup alarms correlating to a higher number of children being run over by reversing vehicles.
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On my wh-1000xm2, wh-1000xm3, wf-1000xm4 and lastly wf-1000xm5, there is a quite high frequency pitch (usually coincides with some public transport beeps, and some accidental squeaking of doors) that toggles ANC to transparent mode automatically. I remember reading something about this on Sony's support website.
My XM4's always do that at the beeps from the cash register, although I always attributed that to their volume rather than frequency. My theory was that they refuse to produce sound loud enough to cancel the beeps for safety reasons.
Also triggered by baby screams unfortunately
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> The "plausible sounding-text generator" generated plausible sounding text. More news at 11
Yeah, that's what LLMs do. Now is it true? Who knows!
This seems to be part of a type of brand marketing where a brand claims it has invented something, but the only thing that ever exists of significant economic value is the attention raised by the promo video / article. Not the thing/service.
Examples:
- Samsung safety truck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GNGfse9ZK8
- Citroën motion sickness glasses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aco63dlq_WE
- Amazon Prime Air https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AVVTBmtDdo
- IBM Smart Ads https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbEMVdzXiCY (implies they created lots of ad posters, but they only made 3 posters for this video)
- Lexus Hoverboard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFf7Meqkim8
I wonder if there is a term for this. "Vaporware marketing"?
To be fair, I think Prime Air is real, but I've only heard about it when they've had drone crashes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGdOpR-Mv-E
AFAIK it's only available in a few very specific places (seemingly for good reason).
I love these types of videos because they create this fiction of how design happens, where people sit around a table with drawings and or come up with beautiful mock-ups (the motion sickness glasses is a good example). Often, a lot of design decisions are super obvious and don't require a lot of sweat and collaboration to come up with, but in videos they're made to appear very difficult as it presents better. And other things are super messy, but you're not going to show that as it's hard to communicate.
I think you nailed it. You can't even buy this bike bell, as far as I can see.
I'm not sure IBM Smart Ads were ever an actual product/invention, and Prime Air is a live service (albeit geographically limited): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Prime_Air
There's at least a paper to download: https://cdn.skoda-storyboard.com/2026/04/Skoda-DuoBell-Resea...
Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?
In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient.
Structurally, we'd be much better off reducing conflicts between the different tiers of users. I.e. properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down.
With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
>My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there.
In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move".
But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.
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My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell.
My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.
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Agreed.
I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).
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> Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path,
This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).
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> A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.
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It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass.
Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.
> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds.
In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
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> I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way,
I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.
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I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'.
At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it.
In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast.
On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.
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Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.
> With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing).
I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.
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Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette:
Passing a single pedestrian or runner on a quiet day: no bell, coasting for a short bit with a loud free hub (the rotating ratchet element on the rear wheel) alerts the pedestrian to my presence.
Passing a runner: normal ring from a distance so they have knowledge that the bicycle is passing
Passing a cyclist: one loud ring from a distance
Passing a pedestrian walking a dog: two loud rings, one far, one close, so that the pedestrian is aware of the approaching bicycle and he can prevent his dog from running at me/colliding. Many dogs do seem to enjoy a bicycle chase.
Antisocial pedestrians (i.e., walking side-by-side such as to be blocking the path in both directions, preventing the bicyclist from passing): several loud rings of the bell until the antisocial activity has abated. Announcements in my local tongue (not English) that they impede the flow of traffic.
I wonder if you are German?
Spending some time in Germany from Holland I notice there is a significant difference in cycling etiquette :)
Especially regarding “passing a cyclist” which also touches on the essential difficulty with having only one “ring” sound.
Always when Germans pass me on the bike and they ring I get slightly annoyed because I interpret it as a “get out of the way” ring, and I feel like there is enough space. But perhaps it’s just the cautious “don’t do anything unexpected” ring.
A Dutch person would rarely ring at another cyclist in the former way. But they also might be less safety focused while cycling (see also: helmet usage). Or we have safer infrastructure already.
On a road bike, however, I too ring at pedestrians “preemptively”. For sure GPs remark of “if you need to ring you’re going too fast” applies here but that’s the essence of road cycling.
Ironically I’m also annoyed when road cyclists ring at me for the same reason.
Just shows the case for having 2 clearly different types of rings.
(Also for cars to have a “thank you” horn, haha)
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Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.
I hate to tell you, but you are doing it wrong
If infrastructure is shared it doesn't mean you have more rights to pass than pedestrian.
Moreover, bell as a way to warn doesn't work. Because pedestrians will mostly get startled because of it and can actually do this sudden move you are trying to make them not do.
So if you are on fast vehicle comparing to others in the same infrastructure, you need to drive in a way, that you can't be affected of sudden turn of someone in front of you. Which basically means you need to slow down or give enough space for others to do their sudden moves.
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It's not only about preventing accidents (but I do believe it prevents some to attempt answering your question).
It's also about signaling to someone that they might be doing something wrong or they might not be paying attention. For pedestrians it takes significantly less time and distance to stop, for cars, trams, and bicycles, it takes longer.
It happens all the time that pedestrians don't know the customs of a country, they don't recognize bike lines... in that case the cyclists do not need to pump the breaks anytime a clueless tourist gets in front of them... they can ring the bell, signaling:
"yo, it's not how we do it here, please watch out, I'm coming full speed and you are in the wrong, so please look up from your phone and stop right there".
I also had the luck to meet some people thinking they can be on their phone while cycling, drifting into my lane, etc... In that case, a bell is also adequate
"hey, please stop writing a text message while you are on your bike blazing through the city, you are driving as if you were drunk, pay attention please and stop multitasking (you moron)"
If nothing works to change their behavior, of course I'll try my best and hit the brakes safely, but I'd prefer they learned how to move around in the city safely.
My experiences on a motorcycle tell me that if you feel the need to honk you should be focusing on braking and evasive maneuvers instead.
The choice between between teaching some midwit the law and going home in one piece seems crystal clear to me.
In a couple of years of riding I think the horn would have very slightly helped maybe... once or twice. If the other guy would have heard it at all which is doubtful.
Phones? I've seen cyclists using laptops. Some of the most oblivious and entitled vehicle operators on the road.
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"Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?"
If you are a sane person, absolutely not!! You _try_ the bell, if people react, then you go. Many times it just confuses people or people ignore it.
If you are a high-speed maniac and _rely_ on the bell to clear a path for you... then yeah. But you are then also likely to take great risks in general and will probably be in other accidents...
I've been a cyclist in SF and in Amsterdam, both for many years.
In SF I used my bell much more aggressively. It was mainly for cars, if I'm in or entering their blind spot and my spidey sense tells me they are considering an action that places me in danger. For example, we all know when driving when the car in front of us is thinking about merging, even before they indicate (often I feel like I know before they do). I also used it for pedestrians stepping out into the street who are maybe looking past me for oncoming cars but somehow don't see me, or when approaching 'blind' situations like a sharp corner, a driver pulling out of a driveway but there is a tree between us, delivery drivers stepping out from their truck, etc. I can't say how many accidents have been prevented (the person may have eventually looked and seen me), but I can say that my bell has triggered people to look and see me earlier than they were going to had I not rang it.
In Amsterdam my bell is used much more sparingly. It's mostly for tourists stepping into (or considering stepping into) the bike lane. If they are already in the bike lane, I almost always prefer just to slow down a bit and dodge them, as ringing the bell often triggers a deer-caught-in-headlight moment or erratic behavior, which increases the chance of an accident or that I have to come to a full stop. The other situation is to express dissatisfaction at cars blocking bike lanes, cars/bikes not yielding, drivers blocking intersections, or other dangerous behavior. This isn't preventing an accident but I'd argue it is still important, as social control affects how often we make bad decisions. Outside the city I also use my bell to let other cyclists know I'm passing.
So yeah, I'd say bells prevent accidents, but obviously not as well as good biking infrastructure, where pedestrians, bikes, and cars have clear separate spaces, and visibility of cyclists to drivers is high.
> In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient
I have seen a small kid jump from his father's scooter just when I was overtaking them and they decided to stop because he had seen his grandpa or whoever was that old guy on the other side of the bike lane. His father managed to stop him by grabbing his sweater because I had rung my bell a few seconds before he decided to stop but the kid ended up inches from my bicycle. It was at very low speed, almost walking speed yet hitting a bicycle handlebars head first because you turn around without looking still hurts even if the bicycle his stopped.
If I'm driving and I see a young kid like this I always move out away from the curb if possible. So even if they dart out or fall into the road it's not a problem. Actually, same if I'm passing a bunch of parked cars and there is room, since kids can be stupid and emerge from between them.
If someone truly runs into when you're stationary, I'm not sure anyone really has a problem with you in that scenario.
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A car company wanting to divert attention away from the carnage cars cause. Seems a bit suspicious no?
In Skoda's defense, it has a long tradition of making bicycles as well
In the UK, an important market for VW group, there are two types of bicycle, one for the proletariat and the other for the bourgeoisie. Due to the k-shaped economy, the proletariat bicycle died a long time ago, to evolve into the 'Lime bike' in places such as London. In the past, companies such as Raleigh provided excellent proletariat bicycles, and the working man could afford them for his kids and himself. Of course, he would prefer a car, because cars are high status whereas a steel/aluminium bicycle with straight bars is not.
The bourgeoisie bicycle is a relatively recent phenomenon, and anything totally impractical and made of carbon fibre qualifies as bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie bicycle is also too expensive to lock up in town, plus you need all the clobber to go with it (lycra).
Every bourgeoisie bicycle is owned by a car dependent person. They don't begin their ride at their front door, and their journeys are not useful or with purpose beyond cycling. Their bicycles get strapped onto the back of their car, or placed in the trunk, with wheels removed. These people don't need locks for their bicycles as they have a two tonne steel box to secure their bicycle in. You also get things like power-meters with these bikes, plus the owner has to wear a special polystyrene hat, at the insistence of their mother.
Skoda are selling to those people that spend £5K+ on their toy carbon fibre bicycle. They know the realities of car dependency.
Skoda is a huge sponsor of professionel cycling.
> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?
They absolutely do, for indirect reasons:
> Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake
Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic.
With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if they still haven't noticed the oncoming bike.
If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money (especially for bike delivery workers, but I also hate having to sharply decelerate for people glued to their screen or otherwise completely unaware of their surroundings even if I'm not in a rush), so you can take a guess as to whether "just reducing your speed" is practicable.
> If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money
Well this is a bit of an appeal to consequences. I would say (a) this is a very good reason to build dedicated infra, and (b) if something ever does happen, a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well, so be careful with it... even if in practice it's how you consider it.
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I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario.
Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path.
The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.
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horns & bells are for pedestrians IME, not cars.
>> properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
I ride a lot in traffic and the problem with segregated infrastructure (i.e. bike lanes) is the interfaces and constriction. Pedestrians step off the sidewalk or out of cars into constrained bike lanes all the time and there's no where to go; cars turn across bike lanes with the same problem.
You can't always do it, but if you can eliminate the speed differential I believe riding in traffic is much safer than a bike lane, at least until you get enough bike volume to keep drivers aware. THat's hard to do in most of NA or year round.
Bells don’t work on cars, I’ve been using this in SF and motorists respond very quickly
https://loudbicycle.com/
You're right, it's certainly not the primary way to prevent accidents. But it helps at the edges, which seems worthwhile.
That's assuming the bells aren't abused too badly, which is a mixed bag, but mostly true.
There are a lot of runners on mixed use paths wearing headphones these days. They are an absolute danger to overtaking bikes. A bell they would hear would be useful.
To me, in a path with no priority to the bike, the only danger are cyclist who think they have priority and can overtake people at speed.
Being able to get the attention of runners improves the situation, reducing the speed while circulating on a mixed path solves it completely. If you wanna go fast get on a bike lane or the road.
I suppose you feel similarly about the dangers bikes pose to cars?
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Pedestrians are not danger, they are victims! Cyclist should slow down, while performing dangerous overtaking, and not crash into them! Same rules like with cars!
They certainly can, yes. Many crashes can be avoided if both parties slam on the brakes or swerve, not not quite if only one does. Also they're useful in parking lots when some dumbass is about to back right into you.
I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake.
My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out something like "can I get past, please?" or if an immediate response is required (e.g. ped blindly stepping into the road ahead of me) then yelling "Oi!" can really surprise them and make them notice you. I'm also a fan of using "Beep, beep" if a ped is on cycle infrastructure (active travel infrastructure is probably a better term) and I want to pretend that I'm an impatient driver.
I think the human voice is far superior to a bell as you can tailor the message for the situation and you don't have to move a hand away from the brakes to do so. (Using your voice is also a very good idea when approaching a horse and rider - horses know about humans and don't get freaked out if you call ahead "Morning!" or something cheery and appropriate).
On my bike commute route, I'd lose my voice before the first meeting of the day if I had to use only my voice.
I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake.
The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.
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In the scenario presented (London, mostly not segregated bike paths), the solution is for the cyclist to ride in a way they're not endangering pedestrians.
There's even a fairly recent UK law (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-change...) that more or less says in a collision, the "stronger" road user is at fault unless proven otherwise. That applies to car v. cyclist as much as cyclist v. pedestrian.
Writing as a regular cyclist, the other side is seemingly always the problem.
Cars, cyclists, pedestrians, each of them thinks they are right and other side is wrong.
That seems to be exactly the case. As a pedestrian, my problem is the cyclists who think the sidewalk is for going faster than the speed limit and the bike lane is for pedestrians to dodge into. As a driver, it's cyclists who think "you can treat stop signs as yields if there's no traffic" means "stop signs are go signs, yield signs are go faster signs, there's no such thing as a red light". I'm sure if I biked, I'd be complaining about cars not seeing me and pedestrians being unpredictable and hogging the sidewalk. I'm sure if I was a train driver, I'd rant about cars blocking the tracks!
Two of the three clips clearly show a bike-lane blocked by pedestrians. The third looks like a shared space - but blocked in a way where it seems reasonable to ask for space by ringing the bell?
> the "stronger" road user is at fault unless proven otherwise
In general I agree with this, but a lot a lot depends on how "unless proven otherwise" is interpreted.
If a driver is typically at fault when a pedestrian or cyclist unexpectedly moves into their path then it seems like that practically restricts cars to speeds close to biking or walking in many cities.
Similarly, if a cyclist is typically at fault when a pedestrian unexpectedly moves into their path then it seems like that restricts bikes to speeds close to walking in many cities.
This effectively pedestrianizes car lanes and bike lanes which would be lovely in some areas, but it also restricts travel to walking speeds which also has downsides if enforced across an entire city.
Edit: after reading the post at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-change... the guidance seems to strike a reasonable balance:
> People cycling, riding a horse or driving a horse-drawn vehicle should respect the safety of people walking in these spaces, but people walking should also take care not to obstruct or endanger them.
Political cyclists hate this because they think anybody who complains is just a car driver concern trolling, but having been hit by a cyclist I can attest to it being a real problem. Sure I wasn't in real risk of dying, but I was bruised and scraped up for a week after that. I've done my fair share of road cycling in my years, I don't do it now but I still cycle on trails. The way some cyclists push back on any criticism at all is very ideological, and a real problem for not just pedestrians (and drivers) but cyclists too, because the outspoken attitudes and public stunts of political cyclists breed a lot of contempt for cyclists broadly speaking, to the point where normies groan when I say I spent my weekend going on a trip with my bike, and still act weird when I explain I was on a rail-to-trail not clogging up a highway.
It's one thing when you're a fit adult male and get hit by an idiot cycling recklessly on the pavement, it's another if you're a small child or frail through sickness or old age. I've seen a couple of very near misses that would have ended very badly for the pedestrian through no fault of their own.
Saying this it's mostly teenagers in the idiot role from what I've seen and they are reckless by default.
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> not clogging up a highway.
Did you consider that your talking about GROUPS of people where _some_ individuals from ALL groups regularly behave poorly and deserve criticism and action?
Or is that too much of a nuance against tribal thinking?
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Years ago, SF pedestrians took care of this problem by punching bicyclists until they stopped riding their bicycles on the sidewalk.
I think it's time for some sort of a safety standard for a sound frequency to be reserved exclusively for alarm/alert use and that ANC systems have to let through.
It goes without saying, use of said frequency should be prohibited for other purposes, especially marketing.
I think this is a really bad idea unless paired with some regime that penalizes inappropiate use of alarms - and most societies don't treat noise pollution as a real problem. For example, people honk all the time even when there are no safety issues. Or have misconfigured home/car alarms. Outlawing using ANC for blocking "fake alarms" only makes the problem worse.
> some regime that penalizes inappropiate use of alarms
Legally, use of horns in traffic is restricted, and abuse can be punished. Doesn’t keep people from honking all the time.
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No honk in Switzerland, some honk in Romania, all honk in India. There's no one rule to rule them all.
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I don't know… If I'm sitting at home or at a cafe working, I want my headphones to block all bicycle bells and ambulances on the street. Those in traffic could perhaps just turn their ANC off?
... and fire alarms? carbon monoxide detectors?
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We can't even prevent radio advertisers from playing sirens.
as soon they do that all kind of companies will start abusing it, for example the sound of all smart phone notification will use exactly that frequency
Regular alarm sounds already do that, because above 1kHz or so it's the cushioning in the device that does the majority of the cancelling. There's a dip in effectiveness before that because to cancel noise effectively it's best to have a latency lower than a quarter of the wave's period.
Also ANC works best on wide-spectrum sounds, so any kind of siren or the cries of a child will go through, as the spectrum is a series of narrow peaks.
The real safety move is to not put yourself in situations where you're going to collide with the least dangerous class of commuters.
In theory that sounds nice, but I suspect it would be much harder to make work in practice than it seems
However, deaf people are allowed to drive, cycle, walk etc. so sound won't always work anyway.
I suspect deaf people are more aware of their lack of hearing than headphone wearers.
Ha, I had the same idea before I realized it’ll just be used for ads. It would be cool for pilots’ announcements on a flight, or approaching stations on the train etc. But CVS will use it to tell you to download their app and enroll in ExtraCare Rewards. Or “Did you know you may be due for more than fourteen vaccines all at no cost to you?”
this sounds like an amazing idea, the govt should introduce laws so that the companies do this
It's almost hilarious that such efforts are spent on bicycle bells while emergency vehicles are featuring deafeningly loud alarms to penetrate the sound isolation of cars.
Over engineering in real life, solving lack of common sense by introducing a solution where the cyclist is paying.
I think the solution is nice for sure, but solving the wrong problem.
The presentation looks like marketing overkill, their solution looks pretty simple. It‘s just two trills „Trillerwerk“ bells combined. It was the standard in Germany until the late 1990s https://youtu.be/-mW7dWHDivo
They are still readily available. I suspect that the only reason they aren’t standard anymore is to save 5 Euros on a new bike.
That guy should lead with the sound check. :)
when the alternative is "everyone doing the right thing" this solution starts to look like the pragmatic approach
Over-engineering? It's a fully mechanical bike bell that's made slightly differently. It's a very established and straightforward technology.
The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary?
In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required.
Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while cycling on my Bose Quiet Comfort II, as the ANC will try (and fail) to cancel the noise from the wind. I don't think this is a solved problem? So for bicycle-to-bicycle alerting, this also seems overkill.
Yes, company Škoda is from Czech Republic where we have shared-use paths for cyclists and pedestrians. It is not "necessary". You should not be wearing noise canceling headphones while being in traffic - it makes you more liable in case of accidents.
In Singapore, cyclists are generally expected to use the pavement and share it with pedestrians.
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If you know of a simple technical solution to transform the entire world into the Netherlands, I'm all ears!
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I don't know why, but sometimes this is done intentionally.
In my (Dutch) city, there is this infuriating piece of road where the bicycle path suddenly gets routed onto the kerb, intentionally mixing bikes and pedestrians. I believe the theory is that bikes will go slower so pedestrians don't need to worry about crossing the road as much or something.
Predictably, lots bikes are taken by surprise, either brake hard and suddenly or fly through pedestrians (who the biker thinks are in their bike lane, because they would be two meters earlier).
In my experience, when bikes and pedestrians meet, one of the two groups is in the wrong place and should be watching out/slowing down and waiting.
The example video shows various instances of pedestrians walking in bike lanes (and seemingly being surprised at the sudden appearance of a bike there). You can't fix stupid, but at least you can tell them to get off the bike path.
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I dislike the smug condescending tone of your comment. Not everyone lives in the "cycle utopia" Netherlands. For some of those that don't live there, this could be a game changer and life saver since its easier to buy a bell than wait for your city to build you segregated cycle lanes.
Personally, I see no use for this bell since in Austria bicycles share the road space with cars, trucks and trams rather than pedestrians, which could be more dangerous, and what I would need is a bicycle bell that could penetrate car enclosures so that drivers would get off their phones and pay attention to the stuff around them.
Yes, I know, ideally there should be dedicated cycle lanes only for bicycles but nothing in life is ever ideal, and the city isn't gonna do that anytime soon since that would mean completely eliminating car traffic on the narrow streets, witch would be political suicide, so a bell would be an instant life saver.
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What's your easy technical solution to improve common sense, then? Or is it the all time classic of "just improving society"? I'm all ears for your ideas.
I have to agree here. The amount of cyclists I see with full over the ear headphones on-- if these guys are blarning tunes, there is no way they'll every hear the traffic around them. Extremely dangerous.
Agreed, however, what do you think about my 'dream bicycle bell'?
I replaced my bell recently because mine had developed a form of 'tourettes' after a bit of plastic fell off. So I did survey the marketplace for something 'more me'.
This made me think about what the ideal bell should be. I reckon that you should be able to buy tuned bells, as in A - G with 440hz 'C' being in there somewhere. Maybe there could be different colours of the rainbow for each frequency.
This would be quite tuneful if I was riding with family or friends, with them also having a tuned bell on their bicycles.
Obviously no use for penetrating noise cancelling headphones, however, I don't think these are an issue. If someone is zoned out on headphones then it is on them if they have no spacial awareness. If they don't hear the bell, then that is on them.
I also think big auto is patronising, to think they have anything to offer the cyclist apart from death and pollution. What would the car dependent ones know about shared path etiquette?
Nowadays the biggest danger to me on shared paths are the Uber Eats delivery guys with their electric motorbikes. Early evenings can be quite risky with those zombies, particularly within half a mile of a McDonalds. They pose a true 'kinetic' risk that the jogger wearing headphones does not.
The problem is the cyclist trying to overtake pedestrian on sidewalk faster. The cyclist paying for it is correct person paying for it.
I say it as cyclist. Pedestrians have right to be absent minded in parks and on public sidewalks.
I completely disagree, this is just another level of safety.
If everything went perfectly everytime we wouldn't need any safety equipment, but things aren't always perfect.
What is the right problem that should be solved here?
Better segregation of cyclists and pedestrians into their own spaces. The bell shouldn't be something that you use regularly.
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People shouldn't really be walking around in public with ANC on. It's not safe. Not a simple problem to solve except maybe to inform people better upon buying/setting up ANC-enabled devices.
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Fines. No one should cross roads/paths randomly, with or without headphones.
One large fine, and people will learn.
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which part would you consider overengineered?
Eh, it's pragmatic.
It's replacing a problem you can't solve (human stupidity), with one you can (a better bell).
Human stupidity? As in allowing too much noise in the cities to the extend that people need to protect their minds?
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Why can't the cyclists slow down when they see that there's a human obstacle in front of them?
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Can't wait for a headphone commercial that claims that their ANC is so good you won't hear those annoying bicycle bells :)
Seems to be some misunderstanding of what bike bells are for here...
A bell is helpful in a situation where a pedestrian is not aware of an approaching bike. The bell informs the pedestrian of two things:
1. That there is an approaching bike.
2. Roughly were the bike is approaching from.
The hope is that the pedestrian will then behave in a predictable way to allow a safe pass by the bike. In almost all cases the pedestrian will be able to simply continue doing what they were doing before they heard the bell.
If a pedestrian can not hear bike bells, for whatever reason, that is not a problem. They can just stay consistent with the centreline of the path/road/way. They then have a responsibility to shoulder check when shifting from side to side.
Not sure I understand your criticism.
Yes, bike bells are for pedestrians to hear.
Problem: Pedestrians today wear ANC noise cancelling, thus being unable to hear approaching bikes' bells.
Skoda: We made a bell with a frequency usually not cancelled by ANC, so these pedestrians still hear it.
Sounds reasonable to me.
People use their ears to navigate traffic (as non-car-users) much more than they realize. There's a reason kids need to be drilled in "look both ways before crossing the street" - you can hear that there's no car coming, what's the problem? There's a reason electric cars need to make that strange noise so you can, in fact, hear them coming. Absolutely a headphone user, with not only ANC to reduce external noises but loud music to mask them, is missing a primary sense for navigating traffic. Absolutely these things increase accidents from minor (someone walking into the path of a cyclist on a multi-use path, oblivious to bells and callouts) to major.
But can that bell penetrate loud music? How many people really walk around with ANC headphones just as a "cone of silence" device?
Great idea, kinda ridiculous they tested it in VR and not out there in real life, since it is a bell, not a car they need to manufacture to test it.
Next challange: Place a camera in front of the bike that scans approaching pedestrians. Calculate their head position and trajectory. Use directional speakers and focused sound beams to focus the ~780Hz sound towards the head(s) of the pedestrian(s). Now that you are not bothering the environment as much, you can increase the volume as well.
I would love that but not so much for pedestrians as for cars that don't see me on my bike. Ideally, the "bell" would automatically honk at them very loudly when they get too close.
I carry air horn and stick. But I am pedestrian.
what
Sound beam aimed at person in the way.
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This may also be of interest to people - emulating a car horn for bikes https://loudbicycle.com/
(of course, there's also the locomotive horn, but the equipment required is a bit impractical - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTQSWtK65PE)
I use the loud bicycle horn on my daily rider, it’s excellent. Car drivers actually respect it. Prevents right hooks
Or this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ACAMJC (compressed air).
I've periodically toyed with the idea of adding a locomotive horn to my motorized vehicle, but I'd be afraid that using it would cause an accident.
No, Google, I do NOT mean "skoda doorbell." Morons.
Meanwhile... you apparently can't buy this thing anywhere.
My horn is my larynx. I usually belt out “please don’t kill me” in a stern voice-of-command at my “max volume.”
A loud voice travels very well through car windows at short distances, even for big soundproof vehicles.
I assumed this bell was for alerting pedestrians or other cyclists wearing noise cancelling headphones.
Overall this bell seems like the wrong solution, and it took me a while to realize not every country has outlawed headphone wearing for bicyclists, something I guess I took for granted.
It doesn't make sense for a car driven to use headphones, so not sure why it'd make sense for other vehicle-users to use them either, as you say, we really do use our ears to help navigate traffic so allowing people to be so careless seems... Careless?
You can turn up your car stereo and mow over pedestrians undisturbed in your two ton death machine yet I'm not allowed to cycle on a bicycle-only path with with a podcast and transparency mode enabled? For my own safety? Safety from car drivers that fell asleep driving with their stereo on?
Don't know where you live, but where I live it isn't legal to play so loud music that you cannot hear the outside, especially if it's so loud you cannot hear other car horns. So no, neither should be allowed, because again, we use our hearing when we're in traffic to help our other senses.
Mostly for others safety, and I guess if it helps you; for your safety too.
A slightly more controversial, but equally effective solution would be to glue an angry toddler to your handlebar.
It's hard for me to understand why people choose to walk around in public wearing headphones. I'm aware that it's incredibly common, but you put yourself at risk of theft, accident, and of course the mild hearing loss that accompanies _any_ frequent headphone usage. In the case of both theft and accident, you cannot hear your assailant coming, and miss the queues that would otherwise keep you safe.
> and of course the mild hearing loss that accompanies _any_ frequent headphone usage
curious, you got any citations for this claim?
"Loud" is a bit subjective, but in my experience most people make their volume far too loud. Even moreso if you're attempting to overcome the background sound around you.
The articles below discuss both volume and duration. It's also worth checking out the OSHA guidelines which pretty cleanly show the relationship between duration and volume. (ie, "safer" volumes still cause damage with enough duration.)
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-to-rock-out-with-ear-...
https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2024/01/listen-headph...
https://www.cnet.com/health/wearing-headphones-right-now-fol...
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/noise/prevent/understand.html
Same reason I listen to music or podcasts in the car.
I am very lucky to live in a city/country where risks of theft from my person is low - when I lived for 20 years in London I never once felt unsafe listening to music.
The closest was two young men got very close to me on the tube, when I was playing on my brand new Hong Kong imported PSP - but I just took my headphones off. I think they were just interested as most people hadn't seem one in the flesh yet.
I can't say I know of anyone personally who suffered theft or accident caused by them listening to music on headphones.
When I cycled a lot, I had a small speaker strapped to my handlebars rather than wearing headphones, as I liked being able to hear cars around me - but when I was younger I regularly cycled in headphones, and was still able to hear enough of the road around me to not feel that I was missing anything.
Remember, we don't make drivers drive around with no music and their windows open, so that they are better able to hear cyclists...
I know a few people that simply wear headphones to help with managing sensory overload, so I wouldn't assume that having headphones on is a guarantee of listening to something (though still likely to be strongly correlated).
As far as assailants, a skilled ninja wouldn't be detected even if their target weren't wearing headphones...
It's a definitive statement that you don't want to talk to people. In London not wearing headphones ironically means you become a target for people who want your attention. And it blocks out the otherwise very loud cityscape.
Many neurodivergent people are simply overwhelmed by the sound on the streets
Are you really living your life walking around thinking about the next assailant?!
Must be terrifying.
Where I used to live it was smart not to wear headphones, being it for muggers, drunk drivers, random shootings or crazy dogs. It was not a chill place no.
Not these days, but I moved away from Baltimore.
This bell would be illegal in Denmark, where our laws clearly state that you are only allowed one signal giving device and that any signal giving devices attached to vehicles (including bikes) can only produce one constant sound.
How this would be enforced is a different topic.
Not entirely the same in Norway, but the rule as written is roughly translated "Sound signal: A bike should have a bell. Other signalling devices are prohibited".
Doesn't stop me from using an AirZound or digital airhorn. Saved me countless times. Like a bell is heard by a driver blasting their stereo while checking their phone, slowly veering into the cycle lane.
Really? I would have guessed you could argue that it qualifies as „one signal giving device“ since it is one single piece of equipment (ie the horn in a car also has many parts, but it‘s presumably fine) and also that it „only produces one constant sound“, where that sound is composed of different frequencies (again, car horns probably don‘t have a pure tone in Denmark either, right?).
Non of those laws are enforced, ever. Even if you get stopped by police. When have you last seen a bike with all the mandetory reflectors?
After 10+ year biking in Amsterdam I never use my bicycle bell. Instead I try to predict their trajectory and steer around it, way more predictable because everyone responds differently
Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist.
When bikes have to go through areas where people walk freely, they need to limit their speed to a walking pace.
People should not wear headphones (noise-cancelling or not) when going through traffic as pedestrians. Take them off when crossing!
People should not hear loud music when driving - max is normal speaking voice level. Bike drivers should never hear any music, let alone wearing headphones. Behind-ear speakers on low could be a compromise.
Hey, we just solved 90% of the accidents.
> Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist.
This is the reality in many cities, if it weren't for the hopefully not surprising fact that people don't always obey traffic laws perfectly.
> Hey, we just solved 90% of the accidents.
No, you didn't. And restricting cyclists and pedestrians will not result in even small dent in the numbers of maimed or killed people in traffic. It's one mode of transport that's responsible for the vast amount of it, and that's the motorized one propelling several tonnes.
> and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist
And cars have no business being on other roads as long as highways exist ;)
I meant biking accidents this product is obviously trying to solve.
> And cars have no business being on other roads as long as highways exist ;)
Biking lanes are not comparable to highways. Where I'm living, if you bike on car lanes when biking lanes exist, or if you bike on sidewalks at all, you get a hefty fine depending on the situation and if you possess one, you get points on your driving license.
Exceptions are turning, leaving the road, the lane being blocked by a clueless driver etc. obviously.
Cars are also not allowed on biking lanes, neither are pedestrians. Same exceptions apply.
Highways are more comparable to railroads, maybe.
This only leaves open how to enforce all of it without everybody shouting domestic terror.
How do we enforce seatbelts? (1) Assume the public aren't stupid. (2) Assume the public aren't murderers. (3) Explain the risk-benefit analysis through informative videos like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_(1998_film).
People can shout "domestic terror" all they like, but if it's not true, it's not true.
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If "shouldn't" worked we'd have no industrial accidents without any safety measures, no unwanted pregnancies and in general would more or less achieve heaven on Earth.
Unfortunately, the UK seems almost incapable of building usable cycle infrastructure (possibly excepting London). Your idea is just a recipe for magic protective paint and even more abuse of cyclists who don't want to be forced to use ridiculously badly designed infrastructure. e.g. Here in Bristol, we have an infamous shared cycle/pedestrian pavement along Coronation Rd that has a few trees completely blocking the cycle side which just means conflict between pedestrians and cyclists who have to fight over the scraps left over from motorists taking most of the space (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4462522,-2.6064792,3a,75y,80...).
Sorry I didn't write "don't have trees in the middle of the cycling lanes", I should have been more clear.
Also "don't let the restaurants cover the pavement with tables" follows the same logic.
Perhaps, planners should travel the route three times for every permitted mode of transportation, including walking, biking, and driving.
It's mildly interesting, but ultimately it's just a little greenwashing project. They even painted it green to make that clear :)
It's unfortunate that this is necessary. It should be obvious that wearing noise cancelling headphones in trafic, including as a pedestrian, is a bad idea.
I'm legally blind, so I have my own bias here, but I think people really over-rely on sight. If you do want to listen to something while walking around a city, I can highly recommend bone conduction headphones, that keep your ears unblocked.
Video version which has more detail than the text: https://youtu.be/zDaVPfpQvPI?is=sSyjXf07r9cg9r4Y
Bit cringe marketing though.
I find the "Heard five seconds earlier, the difference between a serious collision and stepping aside" take hilarious. As if there is no other way to prevent a collision in five seconds other than the pedestrian getting out of the way.
As much as I get the urge to plow through pedestrians on bike paths (and stay proudly in the way of bikes on pedestrian paths), in real life, normal people don't do that kind of thing. Bikes have brakes for a reason.
Yeah, this while video I honestly couldn’t stop chuckling because it’s built on assumption that bicycles somehow either can’t brake at all or will take five business days to brake like a freight train. Though looking at Berlin cyclists the assumption seems to be true - so many of them insist on just plowing headfirst into an obstacle instead of braking that I start to think that the video was made by one of such cyclists.
But if you go at 40km/h the time goes down to one or two seconds!
absolutely filled with misleading "science" and outright lies, so they can charge a premium for a bell.
Cool idea. But bizarre that they worked with Deliveroo. Bike bells were designed for a time when cyclists travelled at speeds where you could safely get out of the way.
Most "independent" cyclists do cycle safely.
But delivery riders for delivery platforms commonly use illegally modified e-bikes. Platforms have the GPS data. They must know.
They could make huge improvements in safety by actively preventing the use of illegally modified e-bikes that travel too fast.
>They could make huge improvements in safety by actively preventing the use of illegally modified e-bikes that travel too fast.
Or by regulating bicycle food delivery services so thatheir employees' continued employment and wage magnitude doesn't hinge quite so thoroughly on how rapidly they deliver.
Yes, absolutely that.
I nearly put a passive aggressive "employees" in my post, but that would mix concerns. But having drivers as "contractors", and dodging employers' responsibilities and liabilities, is really the root of this all.
Begun, the noise-cancelling wars have.
I need a noise canceller canceller canceller.
It is amazing they openly shared their findings [0], but one thing I am missing is what this design would cost if put into mass production. To the biggest layman possible, it reads like while the design is clever and would be more expensive by virtue of more materials/size alone, it's not impractical, but maybe someone more informed on this type of manufacturing can correct my ignorance. If that's the case, hopefully we'll see these designs on the market soon as even with music+ANC, I have found certain sounds to be able to easily penetrate through when listening, though that is purely subjective and I don't have my music earbleedingly loud...
[0] https://cdn.skoda-storyboard.com/2026/04/Skoda-DuoBell-Resea...
This might seem weird coming from a car manufacturer but Skoda is a big sponsor of cycling races, most notably of the Tour de France and other ASO races. And as explained in the footer, they started out with building bicycles in the 19th century.
For a moment I thought this was an April fools joke product.
Pretty cool though!
Same here, surprised that only you mentioned it here.
You could also not blast past me on the path, yes I am off to one side, and no I don't wear headphones outside.
What do you call it when a car manufacturer has a little bicycle division? Is it still greenwashing or is there a more specific term?
A pedestrian shouldn't need to be able to hear to be safe from cyclists. Focusing on headphones is ignoring that the same dangers are being imposed on deaf people and people with otherwise bad hearing. If a cyclist needs to use the bell for safety, they should hit the brakes.
I’m sure Android and iOS could add some AI feature to let some specific noises in the headset when needed (baby cries when enabled, smoke detector alarms, bike/car bells, etc). Simply stop the music for the duration of the specific noise and replay it. That would be a cool use of AI.
So you don't even need Android or iOS for this feature and it's been a thing on certain headsets for a while; both my Sony headphones and buds do this.
It also has an integration with the phone which can add GPS awareness but it works fine without it in my experience.
For anyone that wants to actually hear the bell before reading all the marketing material:
Bell sound starts at 2:09 in the video.
And seems to sound like a normal bell, or maybe that's just my ears. I guess I can see why they didn't put it up front, but that was also all I wanted.
I have noticed I can make a less sharp sound with my bike bell by ringing it a certain way. I use this to let pedestrians know I am coming but that they don't have to jump out of the way.
I genuinely had a similar thought a few days ago while riding my motorbike; I had my AirPods on with noise cancelling, and I was like: I wish there was something that would alert me to horns/bells ... not that AirPods are super efficient at cancelling background noise but still!
Noise cancelling headphones while riding a motorbike is… a choice. Do you also wear a blindfold?
hopefully this is because it's a prototype, but doesn't solve the #1 problem with these type of thumb-lever rotating bells: everything (including the axle) is plastic and they break if you look at them funny. The hammer-type with plastic hammers or hinges don't work either; maybe solve the "actually make a noise" problem first.
Am I nuts or is "regular bike bell" exactly the kind of sound that ANC does not cancel well?
my Bose quite comfort headphones will still allow any non-regular noise through, I believe that is by design for this very reason. Do other brands not do this?
I carry air horn. Great for dogs and aggressive cyclists. Pedestrians have no obligation to jump into ditch, to clear walking path for speeding cyclists!
In Germany we have rules, and one of those rules is that pedestrians on the sidewalk who are in the cyclepath (usually a too-subtle red stone) do, in fact, have to get out of the way for cyclists.
I imagine there's also a rule about directing airhorns against law abiding cyclists.
I am quite often in Germany.
Red stone in Germany is cycling path, not general walk path where cyclists are not allowed.
Air horns are generally allowed upto 105 dB. Peper spray, telescopic batons and other similar devices are illegal. I also carry walking cane.
That can’t be aero.
On a serious note there’s a marketing problem in my view: who out there who chooses to buy a bell even considers that their might be a loudness problem? It’s not immediately obvious that I need this and I’m sure there’s a premium price attached.
I bought a nice ding dong bell for my bike, and pedestrians seem to notice it a lot more than the nastier sounding bells.
So it's tuned to a specific frequency at 780Hz? And that defeats all/most ANC?
That's the interesting bit. Is this a known / agreed upon feature of ANC headphones or just a property of a specific iteration of let's say airpods?
Fun fact: Škoda means "pity" or "damage" in Czech, can also be used as "what a shame".
Happened to be the company founder's surname.
it is quote common family name in Czechia, my daughter's classmate has this family name as well
same with most of the Japanese car brands or even Citroen, Peugeot...
But Citroen and Peugeot don't mean something funny like "What a shame"
This is amazing. Would be great if emergency vehicle sirens could also adopt these findings. I feel like they're beyond painfully loud these days.
Reminds me of old Reich bells http://reich-cycle-bells.de and their „Trillerwerk“ (trill sound)
Here's my hot take: just get rid of bicycle bells and horns altogether. When's the last time you heard one and were usefully informed about some behavioral change to avoid accident? How often does that happen as opposed to needless use of the bell/horn, or not noticing it for whatever reason (let's be charitable and exclude use of ANC headphones, but include general noise levels and boy-who-cried-wolf). How often is it just a jump scare, making traffic less safe?
Just ride/drive a bit more thoughtfully so you don't hurt people, even if they're deaf.
Bike bells are useful for me most weekends to let me know there's a bike soon to overtake me while I'm skating.
Headphones on folks while they're out walking is ridiculous and antisocial and if they get hit because they didn't hear a bell then they had it coming. I only use a single earbud at a time so I don't lose my situational awareness entirely, but even that can still wash out the rest of the world noise pretty well.
I believe devices intended to block necessary external environmental sounds should be prohibited while driving, including cycling.
Remember that a horn is a safety feature.
It's not about the cyclists wearing ANC headsets (which is already prohibited at least in Euro countries), but about pedestrians wearing them. Another problem altogether.
In effect they are, even if not directly. There are requirements to stay aware of your surroundings. If you cause an accident by blocking all sounds, I totally can see insurance companies claiming this is your own responsibility and refusing to cover.
It is of course prohibited in many jurisdictions. it's just not enforceable.
This is more aimed to warn pedestrians who wear ANC headphones. Should people be prohibited from wearing headphones while walking?
If they're walking on a pathway that's shared with bikes and other wheeled transport of speeds greater than walking, then yes.
It is pedestrian who are wearing the ANC to remove the noise outside.
My trick after biking 10+ years in Amsterdam. Never use your bicycle bell, instead try to predict their trajectory and bike around it. Ringing your bell is always a gamble because everyone responds differently
> Its a simple analog solution to a digital problem
That's such a beautiful statement
i’m on airpods pro 3, and it’s far from producing noise-cancellation so powerful as to require such measures. perhaps if I’m listening to heavy music at ear-damaging levels. maybe my hearing is too sensitive.
Is it available for sale?
This is one of those ideas that sounds a bit like marketing fluff at first, but the underlying problem is actually very real
That's nice and all, but the onus is really on the person walking on shared paths with noise cancelling headphones. My bell works fine, and I ring it before passing peds as the law requires, so I don't intend to waste money on a new bell anytime soon.
Intentionally deaf people hate this one trick.
How about cyclists stop cycling on sidewalks?
I don't know where you're from, but in Germany for example, there are countless situations where cyclists and pedestrians share the same space, or pedestrians can (or just do…) cross bicycle lanes. I'm a very law-abiding cyclist since witnessing a few horrible accidents, and yet I encounter situations with headphone-wearing pedestrians regularly. Often I'll ring my bell to no avail, until driving right up to them, and they still won't hear me. This is really frustrating; I'm definitely in the market for this.
I am aware that most countries do not have dedicated roads for cyclists, but that doesn't mean that cyclists should be using sidewalks. When I go out and walk on the sidewalk, I expect to be able to just walk safely without having to think about potential riders of bicycles or other things that people ride on sidewalks.
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If just slowing down helps to prevent an accident, not sure what the bell would be good for - except for signaling your frustration to everyone around you
> I'm a very law-abiding cyclist since witnessing a few horrible accidents, and yet I encounter situations with headphone-wearing pedestrians regularly. Often I'll ring my bell to no avail, until driving right up to them, and they still won't hear me. This is really frustrating; I'm definitely in the market for this.
I’m guessing some law (law-abiding) gives you the right to bother people who are using their own feet instead of wheels because you want to pass them and they should have to actively watch out for you and yield to you? Okay, that part is fine. But I don’t see how it is nice or, I dunno, ethical.
In my experience (in my locale) as a cyclist you either give pedestrians a wide enough berth, dismount so that you can pass them if it is crowded and there is no passage, or use the vehicular road.
I remember violating this one time when I belled someone that I wanted to pass on the sidewalk. But I was a child at the time. Even more self-centered than I am now.
These seeming rules for yielding to cyclists are worse than the laws and norms when cars interact with bicycles, by the way. At least where I am: cars never honk cyclists. They have to wait for them or find a window to pass them safely. They can’t honk them into the ditch or something.
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A lot of footpaths in Europe are designated paths that are shared with cyclists
As a cyclist in London, I’ve hit one pedestrian: they stepped backward(!) into a cycle lane. I had nowhere to go, as there was a curb on the other side. Pedestrian behaviour is just totally wild with respect to cycle lanes, a lot of them are just totally oblivious. If you cycle, you will come across people walking along or stepping into dedicated cycle lanes several times during the average commute.
At least here in Austria, I honestly rarely, if ever, see them do that. Either roads or dedicated/mixed designated cycle paths. We do have enforcement even against cyclists, though more than anything, that catches all the "unlocked" e-bikes, because cycling on the sidewalks is not a thing anyone does.
Even with bikes being off the sidewalk, there is need for a quick way of getting others pedestrians attention.
e.g.: In Amsterdam you cross biking lanes to cross the roads sometimes, or bike lanes and sidewalks are so integrated, you can wander into them without noticing.
Being tired in a crowded street in rainy weather doesn't help either.
This is always an odd one, as it’s the people who look like they just found a bike in a skip and decided to ride around here that cycle on the pavements.
I'm often a pedestrian and I've been known to walk into the road where there are bikes and cars also.
What if they are shared?
not all of them do
Edit 2: I originally didn’t think of the case when you want to warn pedestrians that you are passing (without asking them to give way) in case they decide to switch direction without looking if there is any incoming entities. That seems legitimate to me. Although giving a wide enough berth might be better than doing it routinely (that could amount to a lot of noise eventually).
Edit: Since people seem to go either way: It is my understanding that in my part of the world (in Scandinavia) cyclists do not have the right of way on sidewalks (which means they can’t bell people away). They also (and I know this one) do not have the right of way while cycling across road crossings. Something that most cyclists, in my experience, violate all the time.
Quite. It drives me up the wall when cyclists not only use the sidewalk close enough to me to practically graze me (pedestrian), but expect me to actively pay attention and yield to them. Use the road, dummy (there are scarce few bicycle lanes).
I use regular headphones (not over-ear and not really noise canc.) on the sidewalk but take them off when I am crossing the street. And I of course am mindful of other pedestrians. But I’m not gonna take them off because some two-wheeler thinks they can ram into me unless I jump out of the way on the sidewalk.
Well, sure, as soon as infrastructure exists so the alternative isn't "get run over by a homicidal driver". And actual infrastructure, not painted lines that typically get filled up with double-parking cars.
this was not really an issue before food delivery apps came into fashion
btw. kids up until certain age can pretty much in all countries ride bike legally on sidewalk, are there any countries where 8yo can't ride bike on sidewalk?
It's a problem in the US where bicycle food delivery is really rare. Even in places with good bike lanes, they'll often prefer the sidewalk because if there is some sort of obstacle in the bike lane (e.g. a car that parked illegally), it won't jump out of the way for them like a pedestrian with a sense of self-preservation, which would mean they might have to slow down.
Agreed. Make bike paths and people cycle on bike paths. Crazy stuff I know!
I think I’d prefer AI slop comments to comments like this.
So where can I buy this thing?
Not a single place to hear how it sounds.
For a device that ONLY produces sound touted as such a re-vo-lu-tio-na-ry device this is a massive marketing failure.
I've noticed some trains are playing extremely loud announcements (Elizabeth line for example) which makes me think they're trying to penetrate headphones and earphones
Guess why I wear noise cancelling headphones on trains? Because of the excessive announcements!
(I mean seriously excessive. Because in the UK the answer to everything is to create another announcement or poster)
We need to stop the arms race
People don't tend to wear anc headsets when walking the Forrest.
Maybe the issue is the noise in the cities?
There’s more than one issue. It’s not wrong to try to solve one of them.
Some people wear them there.
As perfectly captured in "don't _tend_ to ..."
That's fantastic. Where can I buy one?
Where can I buy this??
Absolutely crazy to be out in traffic with headphones, lead alone noise cancelling ones. I've never even dared to ride my bike on trails with earbuds, the whole thing seems crazy.
Pretty cool if true!
nice but it wont help with isolating earbuds
Oh great, cyclist gonna annoy me even in headphones
750 Hz. Baby crying sound is around 300-400 Hz and let me tell you my airpods pro definitely let me hear the baby cry. I think Apple built that as an obvious safety feature.
Interestingly, all the shrillness noises (chalkboard, balloon or polystyrene screech) are in similar frequency too.
> In real-world trials conducted on the streets of London in February, in cooperation with Deliveroo couriers, the bell proved so effective that couriers expressed a desire to keep it.
Of course they would, because a lot of them either don’t have any bell, or have a shitty ping-ping bell that doesn’t produce good sound.
Or could sell it on eBay for an amount of money that's nontrivial from POV of a gig economy worker.
I always hate having my headphones on ANC on the street. It makes me feel really exposed and disconnected. I tend to use transparency when out and about.
The problem with headphones is not noise cancellation. It’s the fact they play music.
My regular Widek bell penetrates ANC, but when there’s music, ANC or not, it’s hard to hear. I’m struggling to believe the claims this bell is going to be significantly better.
If this bell gets through ANC then yes it will help people with ANC. It's not an all or nothing situation, you hear it further away for each increase in loudness.
Also, ANC let's you reduce your music volume for the same signal to noise ratio.
Every single person that stops and looks due to this is a win in my book.
Living in a city you cannot stand so much that you wear noise cancelling headphones at all times. Commuting to work that you hate and manoeuvring between zombies looking at their phones, wearing noise cancelling headphones, and occasional cars recklessly opening doors or joining the traffic without looking in the mirrors. You even forgot the original goal of saving money because the rent eats 50% of the net salary and work eats every will to live. Here it is - the fruit of your glorious education and mean by which your mortgage is paid is bicycle bell. Thanks for reminding me to stay away from this miserable mess.
Just when you thought interacting with cyclists couldn't get any more annoying... introducing the Škoda DuoBell! New from Mattel!
A reminder that a gun [0] would also work as a bicycle bell that works despite noise-cancelling headphones.
[0] https://xkcd.com/1217/
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Oh great let’s have even more noise pollution because pedestrians won’t get out of the way of cyclists who are trying to beat their personal best time on their commute to work.
You probably should not be living in a city then.
It wouldn't be a problem if pedestrians weren't blocking cycling paths completely while apparently forgetting their hearing aids at home. Some people have even less situational awareness than common sense.
I’m more afraid of cyclists than of cars. I know exactly where the road starts and end, I know there are traffic lights drivers and pedestrians usually respect, so it’s very unlikely that I can get hit by a car. And Im talking about myself, not about the average person (I know stats may say otherwise)
But cyclists can ride in the pedestrian lane, bike lanes and pedestrians lanes are not easily distinguishable (if you are visiting a new city/country for example, and/or the painting of the lanes disappear over time) compared to roads, you typically can hear cars/motorbikes coming (though with electric cars that’s less common) while bikes are very silent, and last but not least, typically there is certain hierarchy when it comes to cars and pedestrians (at least in Europe): pedestrians come first. That’s not the case with bikes (which based on my experience, they share the same level of importance with pedestrians in the streets)
More or less at the time when electric bicycles weighing over 20kg and moving over 30kmh started to drive on sidewalks, I started to avoid living in big cities.
What if you would rather stay in the bicycle lane instead of terrorizing pedestrians? Quite a lot of taxes were paid for those lanes. Use them, and stay out of my headset.
E.g. in Germany many pedestrians, especially tourists, tend to think that bycicle lanes are fancily-painted sidewalks