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Comment by starky

8 hours ago

How many people actually find utility from a Zettelkasten system?

I just can't bring myself to go to the effort of documenting a thought and adding links/tags unless it is something I predict that I will need sometime in the future and won't just remember. Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information. If I'm linking thoughts together I'm doing it real time in my head, anything else takes me too far out of my thought process.

I can see it if you are a person working in academia or a writer where you may be generating concepts that you want to link together in the future. But as someone that does project type work, I'm following too much of a defined process to see any benefit.

I've written thousands of notes with just vim and the file system for over 20 years with little protocol. It's worked out great for me. Simple short text files that eventually graduated to markdown. I have folders and subfolders for top level topic hierarchy. Usually just a single level, a parent folder and then files for specific topics. It rarely goes deeper than two levels. I title everything descriptively to guide me to find what I need later. Since it's also content that I've already visited previously, there's always some level of familiarity, which I also rely upon. After all, this is supposed to be an extension of my mind, so I might as well trust it. When some content is relevant to more than one topic, I make a note to refer to the other locations or I just copy it there. I don't care much about duplication. My only concern is to dump the tidbit of information somewhere it can be found later. On occasion, while I look something up, I might tidy up. When something has become next to impossible to forget, I might delete it (e.g. earlier notes on using some shell commands). Like I said, thousands of notes spanning 20 years, never a problem.

I'm no expert, but looking from afar it seems to me that complex note-taking systems are an optimization on some anticipated theoretical future problem that seldom materializes in practice, and I think trying to squeeze those promised extra 10% of efficiency might possibly qualify as diminishing returns.

The system also feels to me like it would be busywork for most people. I just make notes in a very unorganized way and do some cross-linking. I rely on search for actually finding things, though I feel like I can improve search by using sentence/text embeddings and some vector search.

I developed one for a specific personal research topic. Once I answered my question, the initiative petered out.

I've considered starting another based on the idea of getting high off knowledge. I don't see the point as an information store, but as a toy it makes sense; use it spark curiosity, make neat connections, etc.

Definitely not. I really like Obsidian, but organize everything like a book, which gives just enough structure to know where everything goes without thinking about it, and no more.

There’s just not enough there to make into a blog post.

> I just can't bring myself to go to the effort

That's what LLMs are best, actually. Go through all your stuff and painstakingly document, add tags, refer to other documents, etc

> Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information

LLMs can also separate what information was only useful at a specific time vs more perennially useful notes.

  • Isn't the "gardening" aspect part of it though? It's where you naturally review and mentally correlate topics, infer connections in your brain and spark new paths?

    • This is true. It would be beneficial to do such a task

      However, if one doesn't want (or just doesn't have time) to do the task but still want a tidy cross-referenced set of notes, one could outsource to a LLM

I got enthusiastic about ZK years ago, learned about it and decided it was not for me, it is just too much work with very little to gain from it. Just use Google Keep

At the least, Zettelkasten like habit can be helpful.

For me, I don't bookmark a webpage, I'm usually after a sentence or something after.

Highlighting that one sentence or webpage is a habit.

Throwing a tag or two on them isn't as hard when you can call the tags whatever you want.

After that, those topics are one click away, 5-10 years later.

Trying out Zettelkasten, or PARA, Johnny Decimal or some other system, one will work for you. It's less about perfectionism at the start and just improving.

It's also possible to have an AI just organize the folders for you little by little.

It can not be great at first to play around but the more you work at it the more it does become.

It does feel very cultish, with a lot of hand-waving and very little that seems useful. No one has ever answered your question when I've asked it.

  • They point to Luhmann and his hundreds of academic papers. But I’ve asked two sociology professors about Luhmann and they had never heard of him.

    • Luhmann left behind 70,000 index cards, published over 70 books and ~400 papers, and his systems theory is still actively applied in sociology, legal theory, and organizational studies. He's required reading at German universities. Your sample size of n=2 is methodologically a little thin – which Luhmann himself would have appreciated, given that he had a particular fondness for pointing out systemic blind spots.

      "Two professors hadn't heard of him" is a fascinating epistemological standard. Like me stating: I've also met two cardiologists who didn't know who Rudolf Virchow was. Guess he wasn't that productive either.

      3 replies →

    • [Luhmann, back from the dead]: how has my work been received?

      Sociology prof: "uhhhh. Well, the good news is that there are a ton of YouTube videos about you."

  • I remember doing some research on this topic, and, when I looked for usage patterns for my type of job specifically, I realized that most people were just posting about their workflows learning about... taking notes.