Comment by SlinkyOnStairs
12 hours ago
> hopefully changes the way benchmarking is done
The purpose of a system is what it does.
AI companies want adcopy, not legitimate benchmarks. Even this very paper will be twisted into a means to that end. "Oooo, AI is exploiting our benchmarks. Scary alignment problem!!!one! Our AI is so good we can't contain it, INVEST NOW!"
I work at OpenAI and I really don't find this to be the case.
We're pretty diligent about applying search blocklists, closing hacking loopholes, and reading model outputs to catch unanticipated hacks. If we wanted to, we could choose to close our eyes and plug our ears and report higher scores for Terminal-bench, SWE-bench, etc. that technically comply with the reference implementation but aren't aligned with real value delivered to users, but we don't do this. My impression is that Anthropic and other labs are similar. E.g., in the Sonnet 4.6 system card they use a model to detect potential contamination and manually score those outputs as 0 if human review agrees there was contamination. If all the labs cared about was marketing material, it would be quite easy not to do this extra work.
There are ton of other games you can play with evals too (e.g., test 100 different model checkpoints or run secret prompt optimization to steer away from failing behaviors), but by and large what I've seen inside OpenAI is trustworthy.
I won't say everything is 100% guaranteed bulletproof, as we could always hire 100 more SWEs to improve hack detection systems and manually read outputs. Mistakes do happen, in both directions. Plus there's always going to be a bit of unavoidable multiple model testing bias that's hard to precisely adjust for. Also, there are legitimate gray areas like what to do if your model asks genuinely useful clarifying questions that the original reference implementation scores as 0s, despite there being no instruction that clarifying questions are forbidden. Like, if you tell a model not to ask clarifying questions is that cheating or is that patching the eval to better align it with user value?
I remember the gpt-5 benchmarks and how wildly inaccurate they were data-wise. Linking one[0] that I found so that other people can remember what I am talking about. I remember some data being completely misleading or some reaching more than 100% (iirc)
And this is something which has reached the public eye in one of the most anticipated videos basically. So I find it a bit rough as to think that OpenAI has the best practices for data, and if the public can be shown these inaccurate graphs themselves on based on benchmarks. I find it a bit harder to trust the benchmarks themselves and if OpenAI wants legitimate benchmarks.
Also I find it wild that after 1 month of this, nobody talked about it. I remember thinking that this is gonna be the highlight for a long time that a mega billion dollar company did such basic graph errors. I feel like we are all forgetting a lot of things as our news cycle keeps on moving faster.
(Another tangential point is about the OpenAI/Google employees who had signed the pledge yet nothing came out of it and this is something more recent & I also remember one of your comments on Hackernews.)
> I'm an OpenAI employee and I'll go out on a limb with a public comment. I agree AI shouldn't be used for mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. I also think Anthropic has been treated terribly and has acted admirably. My understanding is that the OpenAI deal disallows domestic mass surveillance and autonomous weapons, and that OpenAI is asking for the same terms for other AI companies (so that we can continue competing on the basis of differing services and not differing scruples). Given this understanding, I don't see why I should quit. If it turns out that the deal is being misdescribed or that it won't be enforced, I can see why I should quit, but so far I haven't seen any evidence that's the case. [1]
This is a bit off-topic so sorry about that, but I hope that you realize that you did say you will go out on a limb with public comment so please don't mind if I ask for some questions, everyone supported you then and heck, even I thought that maybe I was wrong and I thought that I should trust you more than my gut-instincts because you clearly must know so much more than me/us but that aged like fine milk.
I would really love some answers or your thoughts now on that off-topic thought as well if possible as these are just some questions which are unanswered by you and I would love to have a respectful discussion about it, sorry for catching you off guard, waiting for your reply and I wish you to have a nice day ted.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47191196
>The purpose of a system is what it does.
I am so tired of this saying.
It's not true, in general. Systems almost universally have unintended consequences and result in side effects their designers did not foresee.
Designing benchmarks resistant to adversarial attempts to exploit the benchmark software is just something no one was thinking about when they created SWE-bench.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
You are misunderstanding the saying. It is entirely about unintended consequences and viewing the system for what it actually does and not any stated intentions of the designers.
I will propose that you are wrong.
1. We must ignore the intentions of the designers (your claim), and instead see what the outcomes are
2. Therefore we should ignore Beer's intentions when designing the phrase POSWID, and instead see how it is used.
3. The overwhelming majority of people using it on the internet (including the GP comment) is to imply that the people perpetuating the system actually desire the outcome.
So the purpose of POSWID is clearly to imply intent.
Well that’s stupid and completely ignores the meaning of the word “purpose”.
2 replies →
I think the point of the saying is that as systems tend to expand, sooner or later we become part of them. That means that we can no longer see them from outside, we're now part of the system and our goals and the system's goals will align. Then the purpose of the system can't be anything else than what it does.
I think the point is that if the side effects become known and are accepted, or if they are known and rejected, then indeed the purpose of the system is what it does.
Same. Anyone who has designed anything at all in any domain realizes that what your intentions are and what materializes are often not the same. You have practical constraints in the real world. That doesn’t somehow make the constraints the purpose. The saying makes no sense.
That is Anthropic’s shtick to a tee.