For anyone interested in the current state of things in Switzerland, there is this handy map of which Swiss municipalities are dependent on Microsoft/the US right now: https://mxmap.ch/
Think about integrating calendars, corporate contacts (from AD), handling RSVP replies said mx server receives and updating the calendar server, securely deal with modern auth (+ legacy krb5 auth, yuk). It's a huge hassle and everything except Exchange only handles 80% of this.
Modern expectations now want: web clients (OWA), todo lists, integrated storage (SP/OneDrive), and push notifications to any phone from any vendor.
So yeah, the only on prem solution is still Exchange.
> This comes as a surprise, as Microsoft 365 was recently installed on some 54,000 administration workstations
Not really surprising. The people Microsoft wined and dined for the contract are not the same people who agree with Thomas Süssli about reducing the dependency. I look forward to seeing them succeed!
I have switched my small swiss business (10 people) to linux (servers and desktops) and away from microsoft around 2020. I am extemely happy about the choice. Theres small friction here and there with clients that rely on certain software, but its usually minimal and can be fixed. Some people here talk about how people need excel and how important it was, I have personally never seen that in practice here with any client or company I worked for in the past, but maybe it just went past me. It has not been an issue for me in the past 6 years.
If it’s not essentially BYOD and you’re provisioning and monitoring security somehow, would you happen to have any quick tips for hassle-free linux MDM? I’m looking for something appropriate for a similar sized microenterprise.
I can share what we do, it might not suit everyone though. We manage the devices through ansible-pull, and we have a small Prometheus metrics exporter on the devices for what I think is good to monitor. Then we have a grafana dashboard, alerts and so on. This suits us because we can manage the servers as well as the devices with ansible. Most users don't have root. If anyone needs help, the person needs to be in the wireguard vpn and the someone helping can ssh into the machine.
There's also fleetdm, which we are not using, but might be something you want to consider
Doesn't everyone? ads, microsoft account required, undefeatable telemetry, and all wrapped up in dark patterns and bad user interfaces (perennial microsoft).
I bet they haven't thought about Typescript, VSCode, Github, Linkedin, .NET, npm/node, or the contributions done to Linux kernel, Rust and Python that probably would also require security reviews.
Also most of the key contributors to FOSS alternatives are sponsored by US companies as well.
Which is the problem this ongoing geopolitics crysis. Decision makers only think about the superficial parts and not the whole extent of the dependency problem.
It's debatable whether there is a need for the latter in Switzerland though. They have maybe the best fiber network in Europe, which far outperforms anything Satellite-based. You'll regularly get 25 Gb/s symmetrical on residential connections: https://sschueller.github.io/posts/the-free-market-lie/
I know a lot of people with Starlink in Schweiz. It's a mountainous country with a strong tradition of outdoorsmanship. From a military preparedness perspective, you're not guiding munitions with terrestrial fibre.
I managed to convince my org to put up a Grist instance. I now use it for everything I would normally use Sheets for, plus a whole lot more. Row/columnwise permissions, file attachments, multiple views over data, python formulas...
It's a db not a spreadsheet but it's basically the tool I actually needed when I would reach for excel.
Excel is the most widely used document format, database, software runtime, GUI framework and note taking app. It gives Emacs a run for its money in how much you can abuse and overuse one application.
Besides just being everywhere and being ubiquitous (which isn't really a "tech benefit" anyways) what exactly makes Excel "truly superior tech compared to the alternatives"?
Mentioning libreoffice as competitor to Excel and Access is like you haven't understood the market, at all.
Excel is a cross department business automation database, which can sync/pull/push datasets across filesystems and networks.
VBA is the single most used language in Enterprise because it allows to automate pretty much any financial workflow. And more importantly: automated by non-programmers.
Libreoffice is made for private users, and that's not the same users that VBA powered office documents have.
I feel like this general story “x European country wants to reduce dependency on Microsoft” comes up at least once a year.
How do they usually turn out? I have heard Germany/France/? switching to LibreOffice or Linux for some government sector, but I suspect they quietly switch back.
Recent events make it quite clear that this time it is going to be different.
It was like you described earlier. Last year and this year it is basically cumulating over multiple countries.
Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US. I do believe they will be serious about all other purchases from US.
> Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US
Can confirm, as a Swiss person I am flabbergasted at how the federal government keeps pushing for the new fighter jets to be F35s, despite not only the US' currenr erratic behaviour in general, but how it has changed the terms of the purchase deal. Blows my mind, honestly.
The whole gendarmerie in France switched more than 2 decades ago first to libreoffice (was openoffice in earlier days) then to their own ubuntu fork.
But it worked well because it is military, they can manage long term projects without too much external interference and there is zero friction (if the head decides, the rest follows without asking).
In regular public administration, decisions can easily be overturned depending on results of each elections and it is not uncommon to face internal sabotage.
We move slow. But the clima for change is here now, it's been brewing for a decade or so. Expect Europe to not use more money on US services the next two decade. So with inflation you will really see a significant decline. My 5 cents
Switzerland is not in the EU. That said, if their goal is to get off US big-tech, I feel they're left with Apple for hardware and Google for software, realistically.
I'm still fascinated that Ukraine has been going on since 2014 and the EU has spent more time and air trying to go after US industries than Russian ones or Chinese. You'd think the US had actually captured Greenland.
Anyway I get it - just, odd to think about. Passion accounts for a lot.
For anyone interested in the current state of things in Switzerland, there is this handy map of which Swiss municipalities are dependent on Microsoft/the US right now: https://mxmap.ch/
Currently discussed here: 2,100 Swiss municipalities showing which provider handles their official email - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47828420
A post from the same account, no less :|
Nice. I wonder how hard it would be to take the open-source code of the project and adapt it to other countries.
Cool map! MX as in mail exchanger. For something as easy (for IT pros at least) as email, that map should be all green!
Not easy at all.
Think about integrating calendars, corporate contacts (from AD), handling RSVP replies said mx server receives and updating the calendar server, securely deal with modern auth (+ legacy krb5 auth, yuk). It's a huge hassle and everything except Exchange only handles 80% of this.
Modern expectations now want: web clients (OWA), todo lists, integrated storage (SP/OneDrive), and push notifications to any phone from any vendor.
So yeah, the only on prem solution is still Exchange.
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Actually it's only the eMail handling which is probably the easiest one to replace.
[dead]
> This comes as a surprise, as Microsoft 365 was recently installed on some 54,000 administration workstations
Not really surprising. The people Microsoft wined and dined for the contract are not the same people who agree with Thomas Süssli about reducing the dependency. I look forward to seeing them succeed!
I have switched my small swiss business (10 people) to linux (servers and desktops) and away from microsoft around 2020. I am extemely happy about the choice. Theres small friction here and there with clients that rely on certain software, but its usually minimal and can be fixed. Some people here talk about how people need excel and how important it was, I have personally never seen that in practice here with any client or company I worked for in the past, but maybe it just went past me. It has not been an issue for me in the past 6 years.
If it’s not essentially BYOD and you’re provisioning and monitoring security somehow, would you happen to have any quick tips for hassle-free linux MDM? I’m looking for something appropriate for a similar sized microenterprise.
I can share what we do, it might not suit everyone though. We manage the devices through ansible-pull, and we have a small Prometheus metrics exporter on the devices for what I think is good to monitor. Then we have a grafana dashboard, alerts and so on. This suits us because we can manage the servers as well as the devices with ansible. Most users don't have root. If anyone needs help, the person needs to be in the wireguard vpn and the someone helping can ssh into the machine.
There's also fleetdm, which we are not using, but might be something you want to consider
1 reply →
Doesn't everyone? ads, microsoft account required, undefeatable telemetry, and all wrapped up in dark patterns and bad user interfaces (perennial microsoft).
Unfortunately, the pain that Windows has become has yet to prevail over the fear of change for many users.
And onedrive good lord what a pain
Sooner Europeans boycott US companies the better. US is as rogue state as Russia and China
Agreed. Maybe even more dangerous.
Achieving digital sovereignty is imperative for Europe, in any case.
That would make sense except Russia and China are not rogue States. China hasn't been involved in a conflict since the last 70s
Everyone does, Microslops business policy doesn't align with most governments.
Go for it, I'd say. Switzerland is a fascinating country, they lead in many areas. Zermatt, for example is a wonderful town with no cars.
Zermatt is a ski resort for wealthy foreign tousrists, accessible only by train. But, yeah, it has no cars.
Direct democracy instead of a cult of showman.
So Microsoft 365, Windows, and Azure most likely.
I bet they haven't thought about Typescript, VSCode, Github, Linkedin, .NET, npm/node, or the contributions done to Linux kernel, Rust and Python that probably would also require security reviews.
Also most of the key contributors to FOSS alternatives are sponsored by US companies as well.
Which is the problem this ongoing geopolitics crysis. Decision makers only think about the superficial parts and not the whole extent of the dependency problem.
Thirty years after Windows 95? How about focusing on AI or Starlink to reduce dependence now?
For AI: https://www.swiss-ai.org/ For Starlink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutelsat_OneWeb
It's debatable whether there is a need for the latter in Switzerland though. They have maybe the best fiber network in Europe, which far outperforms anything Satellite-based. You'll regularly get 25 Gb/s symmetrical on residential connections: https://sschueller.github.io/posts/the-free-market-lie/
Lol, starlink in Switzerland ?
They got the best fiber and the cheapest. They'd laugh at starlink.
> starlink in Switzerland ?
I know a lot of people with Starlink in Schweiz. It's a mountainous country with a strong tradition of outdoorsmanship. From a military preparedness perspective, you're not guiding munitions with terrestrial fibre.
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starlink in switzerland is like trying to sell hershey to ferrero :)
Ferrero is Italian.
maybe you wanted to say Lindt & Sprüngli or Cailler (now part of Nestlé).
1 reply →
Simply replacing Excel will be a massive challenge.
I root for it, but it will be difficult.
I managed to convince my org to put up a Grist instance. I now use it for everything I would normally use Sheets for, plus a whole lot more. Row/columnwise permissions, file attachments, multiple views over data, python formulas...
It's a db not a spreadsheet but it's basically the tool I actually needed when I would reach for excel.
Excel is the most widely used document format, database, software runtime, GUI framework and note taking app. It gives Emacs a run for its money in how much you can abuse and overuse one application.
Six wrongs don't make a right 8)
I feel like Excel is their one true moat. Everything else is a business play, but Excel is the only truly superior tech compared to the alternatives.
Besides just being everywhere and being ubiquitous (which isn't really a "tech benefit" anyways) what exactly makes Excel "truly superior tech compared to the alternatives"?
6 replies →
not activedirectory as well?
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LibreOffice Calc: Free Spreadsheet Software for Windows, Mac, and Linux
https://en.libre-office.fr/article.php/libreoffice-calc-free...
give it a go. Ive never had problems for my use case.
> LibreOffice Calc
Mentioning libreoffice as competitor to Excel and Access is like you haven't understood the market, at all.
Excel is a cross department business automation database, which can sync/pull/push datasets across filesystems and networks.
VBA is the single most used language in Enterprise because it allows to automate pretty much any financial workflow. And more importantly: automated by non-programmers.
Libreoffice is made for private users, and that's not the same users that VBA powered office documents have.
6 replies →
Microsoft is getting creepy. OneDrive has surpassed McAfee as most aggressive proprietary virus.
Microsoft started creepy in 1978 and has been getting worse every year.
I feel like this general story “x European country wants to reduce dependency on Microsoft” comes up at least once a year.
How do they usually turn out? I have heard Germany/France/? switching to LibreOffice or Linux for some government sector, but I suspect they quietly switch back.
Recent events make it quite clear that this time it is going to be different.
It was like you described earlier. Last year and this year it is basically cumulating over multiple countries.
Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US. I do believe they will be serious about all other purchases from US.
> Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US
Can confirm, as a Swiss person I am flabbergasted at how the federal government keeps pushing for the new fighter jets to be F35s, despite not only the US' currenr erratic behaviour in general, but how it has changed the terms of the purchase deal. Blows my mind, honestly.
1 reply →
The whole gendarmerie in France switched more than 2 decades ago first to libreoffice (was openoffice in earlier days) then to their own ubuntu fork.
But it worked well because it is military, they can manage long term projects without too much external interference and there is zero friction (if the head decides, the rest follows without asking).
In regular public administration, decisions can easily be overturned depending on results of each elections and it is not uncommon to face internal sabotage.
Don't we all.
Some of us have already done that.
Yes we do
Year of the Linux desktop!
[dead]
After so many years of EU countries talking, how much has Microsoft's top and bottom line been affected?
We move slow. But the clima for change is here now, it's been brewing for a decade or so. Expect Europe to not use more money on US services the next two decade. So with inflation you will really see a significant decline. My 5 cents
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Switzerland is not in the EU. That said, if their goal is to get off US big-tech, I feel they're left with Apple for hardware and Google for software, realistically.
Even North Korea has it's own OS, network and application suite...
Switzerland could totally be fully computer-independant if they wanted to be.
What? There's loads of hardware vendors out there. And I'd throw in Linux over google and apple.
I'm still fascinated that Ukraine has been going on since 2014 and the EU has spent more time and air trying to go after US industries than Russian ones or Chinese. You'd think the US had actually captured Greenland.
Anyway I get it - just, odd to think about. Passion accounts for a lot.
You kidding?
Russian anything is completely off the table in europe..
There’s no discussion because it’s hard to discuss the absolute nothing that is happening.
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None of them care about Microsoft's shareholder value
Nil