Comment by Fnoord
11 hours ago
Cygwin is way older than CoLinux. CoLinux is from 2004. Cygwin was first released in 1995.
The problem with Cygwin as I remember it was DLL hell. You'd have applications (such as a OpenSSH port for Windows) which would include their own cygwin1.dll and then you'd have issues with different versions of said DLL.
Cygwin had less overhead which mattered in a world of limited RAM and heavy, limited swapping (x86-32, limited I/O, PATA, ...).
Those constraints also meant native applications instead of Web 2.0 NodeJS and what not. Java specifically had a bad name, and back then not even a coherent UI toolkit.
As always: two steps forward, one step back.
Just use ssh from Cygwin. DLL hell was rarely a problem, just always install everything via setup.exe.
The single biggest problem it has is slow forking. I learned to write my scripts in pure bash as much as possible, or as a composition of streaming executables, and avoid executing an executable per line of input or similar.
On your own system, sure.
As a dependency of a shipping Windows application that needs to cleanly coexist side-by-side with existing Cygwin installations and optionally support silent install/upgrade/uninstall through mechanisms like SCCM, Intune, and Group Policy?
Not so much.
I do use the setup program to build the self-contained Cygwin root that's ultimately bundled into my program's MSI package and installed as a subdirectory of its Program Files directory, however.
I've never had a problem installing from setup, but some tools were (maybe still are, it is a long time since I've needed anything not in the main repo) ported to windows using the cygwin dlls were distributed with their own versions and could clobber the versions you have otherwise (and have their versions clobbered when you fix that).
> slow forking
There isn't much that can be done about that: starting up and tearing down a process on Windows is much more resource intensive operation than most other OSs because there is a lot going on by default that on other OSs a process ops into, only if it needs to, by interacting with GUI libraries and such. This is why threads were much more popular on Windows: while they are faster than forking on other OSs too, especially of course if data needs to be shared between the tasks because IPC is a lot more expensive than just sharing in-process memory, the difference is not as stark as seen under Windows so the potential difficulties of threaded development wasn't always worth the effort.
Cygwin can't do anything about the cost of forking processes, unfortunately.
Try using the Windows busybox port of "Bash":
https://frippery.org/busybox/index.html
It has a subset of bash implemented on Ash/Dash. Arrays are not supported, but it is quite fast.
The forking problem is still present, though.
Cygwin bash isn't slow either. The problem is a typical bash script isn't a series of bash operations, it's a series of command line program executions.
For example, someone might do something like this (completely ignoring the need to quote in the interests of illustrating the actual issue, forking):
Instead of something like this:
This avoids a sed invocation per loop and eliminates self-renames, but it's harder to work with.
Of course the code as written is completely unusuable in the presence of spaces or other weird characters in filenames, do not use this.
Slow forking is only the second biggest problem IMO. The biggest is the lack of proper signals. There's a bunch of software out there that just isn't architected to work well without non-cooperative preemption.
Huh? Signals have worked fine for a long time under Cygwin.
I used cygwin pretty heavily in the late 90s and early 2000s. It was slow. I had scripts that took days to run dealing with some network file management. When I moved them over to linux out of frustration (I think I brought in something like a pentium 90 laptop, gateway solo I think?) they were done in tens of minutes.
I'm sure they did the best they could ... it was just really painful to use.
This matches me experience as well. Some of my earliest rsync experiences were with the Cygwin version and I can remember scratching my head and wondering why people raved about this tool that ran so slowly. Imagine my surprise when I tried it on Linux. Night and day!
Cygwin works fine if I am compiling stuff locally for my own use, but that cygwin1.dll (plus any dependencies) is a problem for distribution.
What I usually do is make sure my code builds with both Cygwin and MingW, and distribute the binaries built with MingW.
> Cygwin had less overhead which mattered in a world of limited RAM and heavy, limited swapping (x86-32, limited I/O, PATA, ...).
Maybe so, but my memory of Cygwin was waiting multiple seconds just for the Cygwin CLI prompt to load. It was very slow on my machines.
> Java specifically had a bad name, and back then not even a coherent UI toolkit.
Java was ahead of its time, now nothing has a coherent UI toolkit.
Qt looks nice as a user and gnome gtk isn’t too bad either
Wx isn’t bad either. https://wxwidgets.org/
You don’t get an app that looks the same across platforms. You do get apps that look like they belong on your platform, even though the code is cross-platform. It uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it across Windows, GTK, Qt, Motif, macOS/Carbon, macOS/Cocoa, and X11 with generic widgets.
Older platforms are also supported, like OS/2, Irix, and OSF/1.
https://wiki.wxwidgets.org/Supported_Platforms
It’s a C++ project, but it has bindings for most of the languages you’d use to build an application. Ada? Go? Delphi? Ruby? Python? Rust? Yes, and more. https://wiki.wxwidgets.org/Bindings
Meanwhile those that complained about Java, now ship a whole browser with their "native" application, and then complain about Google taking over the Web.
I think those are two solidly different camps of people