Comment by adamcharnock
2 months ago
Up until a year ago I was regularly using a Massy Fergusson 135 [0] (Perkins Diesel version), made sometime in the 1970s. It was wonderful! So amazing to drive and use. Clunky and heavy, but you really really felt like you were using a machine. In low gears, if you put you foot down on the accelerator the engine would roar, and your speed would barely change!
And there was no fancy technology in it at all. If I was in the forest and had forgotten the key, I'd just reach behind the dashboard and hot-wire it. The air filter was basically a shisha-pipe that bubbled the incoming air through wire wool and engine oil.
Its fuel gauge didn't work either. You just had to take a look in the tank, or quickly react as soon as the revs started dropping. I ran it dry a few times and had to sit there with a spanner in one hand and YouTube into the other, while trying to bleed all the fuel lines. But they were all on the outside of the vehicle, which made it comparatively easy I imagine.
I've never actually driven a modern tractor, so don't know how it compares. I imagine the clutch is easier on the knees these days!
Anyway, this just felt like the place to share this.
> Up until a year ago I was regularly using a Massy Fergusson 135
There is a tradition in several European countries named Affouage: If you live in a rural area, you can get very cheap (or even free) wood at the condition that you go to cut it yourself in the close-by forest.
Many many people who are doing this practice are still using today Massy Fergusson 135, Renault R98/461, Ford 3000-4000 series, SOMECA or similar low tech tractors.
The reason are simple: They are cheap to operate, cheap to repair (damages happen easily forest environment) and their small size is perfect for the task.
The demand for these things will never die. Rugged environment requires cheap and robust hardware.
If this startup can capitalize on that, they do have a market.
I would like this in a new car company. Low tech, simple to operate, repair, etc. the tech is what goes out of style and I don’t know how (or don’t care) to use half of tech cars have to offer aside from the automatic safety stuff.
The problem with making a low-tech car is that a lot of high tech stuff is mandatory for the car to be road legal.
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People put whatever engines they can find on old truck chassis. It’s up to you to do the swap. Most people do want to DIY anything on a car. Enthusiast based models usually don’t sell in high volume.
Sounds like the Slate truck.
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The hard part is convincing enough capitalists to invest into a high volume low margin product/company that doesn't have a real chance of being a jackpot win down the road. Investors don't want stocks that at its best gain a percentage or two above the overall market, there are plenty of other options with similar returns that have better worst-case results if there is a market crash. A co-op business could theoretically do it and would be happy with such margins, except it is unlikely a co-op is going to have enough capital to start with enough scale to actually push into the automotive market.
Sir Edmund Hillary and his team drove early Massey-Fergussons to the South Pole in 1958 (much to the annoyance of Sir Vivian Fuchs who Hillary beat to the pole even though Hillary was supposed to be a support player only :). The tractors weren't really suited to the job but they were tough enough to make it anyway.
>"f this startup can capitalize on that, they do have a market."
$100K-$200 is very expensive for many. better find used old one
> 100K-$200 is very expensive for many. better find used old one
It is true. But the stock of old repairable tractor will soon or later run dry.
The price of some of these are currently increasing on the secondary market.
If you told me 20y ago, that the old rusty tractor in the neighbour Grand'Pa's storage would be an appreciating asset, I would have laugh.
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> Rugged environment requires cheap and robust hardware.
I read this and immediately thought "lunar colony". And especially if that colony wants to make more of their equipment themselves.
The first motorized thing I've ever driven was a Massey Ferguson 37 I think. I still hope to have my own some day !
At the moment my little brother and my father, who are living in a rural area, have started a collection of vintage tractors by buying everything they can and fixing it up, help that my dad's a mechanic. I'm frankly jealous.
I learnt to drive on one of those. I'm a city kid but my grandfather was a wool farmer. Every school holiday we'd visit and I's spend my days literally puttering around the farm, which was pretty huge (~2000ha).
When I started out, 13ish or so, I had to stand on the clutch to get it down.
If you gave it enough beans and dropped the clutch it'll pop a wheelie! (Don't tell my grandpa)
Honestly, I still had to practically stand on the clutch with mine!
I'd teach someone to drive it and say, "now push down on the clutch". They they would heave and struggle, then eventually succeed and look victorious. I'd say, "well done, it is now half way down! But that's all you need for now!"
EDIT: To fully explain: It has a two-stage clutch. You half-press it and it disconnects the wheels from the engine. If you fully depress it all the way to the floor, it additionally disconnects the power-take-off shaft (PTO) from the engine. The PTO shaft is a spindle on the back of the tractor which drives things like your flail mower, wood chipper, etc.
EDIT 2: Edit 1 was for the general audience, not the parent commenter ;-)
Why was the clutch so heavy? Did it serve some purpose or was it just due to the limitations of the technology at the time?
I have certainly driven cars with lighter and heavier clutches (I live in EU, automatics weren't popular until recently and are still far from ubiquitous) but I couldn't tell you why every model just doesn't get a light clutch for comfort. A diesel Subaru I drove had a particularly heavy clutch as I recall, so at stop lights I would pop into neutral instead of holding the clutch down for an extended period.
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> The PTO shaft is a spindle on the back of the tractor which drives things like your flail mower, wood chipper, etc.
... and kills/maims anyone with lose clothing trying to step over it!
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He knew :)
That seems to be common, the communist-era tractor I was riding was pretty much "stand with full weight and still have to brace by the steering wheel to push it"
Good that at least there wasn't much gear changing, pick one for task and just use it
My grandfather had one of these, though gas powered. It may have been the Ford model, cannot remember, though his was built I believe in the late 40s / early 50s. One story that still makes me laugh, he couldn't start it one day, and asked my grandmother to give him a pulling start w/ their ford diesel pickup. One look and my about 12 year old self just knew she wanted to be anywhere else but there (some foreshadowing, she had a reputation for a lead foot). Grandpa had already tied a rope from the tractor to the truck, and I believe he was in maybe one of the lower gears ready to pop the clutch after he got up to speed. Grandma tore (yes, tore) out of the yard shifting gears, and she was accelerating down their long driveway headed for the main road as Grandpa started frantically waving his hat trying to get her to stop. I'm pretty sure he never asked her again to help start the tractor. And yeah, the tractor was started, probably in the first 50 feet of that episode.
Never do a job well if you never want to do it again.
My dad had one of these, to support his farming hobby. (He used to joke that we ate fifty dollar cucumbers, and a hundred-dollar ear of corn.)
It came in handy living in the country, when occasionally someone would get bogged down on a dirt road, and this thing would come to the rescue.
My grandpa was a high school principal to support his love of farming, not because he wasn't dedicated, but because they wanted to survive
Did your dad grow up with subsistence farmers? I also encountered plenty of hobby farmers who joke about the cost of their hobby which used to get me confused a bit since it was very much a food on the table thing for my grandparents and at least a small financial bonus to me.
Then again I don't buy much new other than seed. Everything feels like a ripoff nowadays.
Hey, we have the exact same model and it's still in use. Those things were built like tanks.
We have an even older one from the 1940s that also still fires up and works just fine.
The main thing the modern tractor buys at this point is simply a cabin with AC (which, TBH, is a VERY nice feature). Otherwise there's not much reason not to use the older farm equipment even today.
We'll still use the old massy for tilling and seeding.
> Those things were built like tanks
In the late 40s, a lot of them were built from tanks !
Would fitting the old tractor with one of those external AC units that run off 12V work?
The old tractors are missing cabs, they are open to the air.
Some of them have a removable roof but that's about it.
I grew up on a farm in Germany. Our "little" tractor was the MF135 (3 cylinder engine!). I started driving it for real work at 12 for the simple reason that my grandpa, who was the third driver when the hay was being brought in, had passed away, and someone had to do it.
My dad and a cousin drove the big tractors. Can't remember whether MF55 or MF65, possibly one of each. Thundering monsters being driven flat out, double-clutched gear changes and all. The reason for all the rush is that the weather isn't that reliable in south Germany, and when they hay is dry and ready, it's all hands on deck.
Anyway... years later I visited the old homestead and there they still were, those big... umm. On Youtube you can probably still find a video of one being turned into a riding lawnmower, underslung mowing deck and all. Those tractors belong in the "Old MacDonald had a farm" era. The modern world is different with the base model of those tractors in the article having three times the power of those old ones, and it goes up from there.
We used to have a really old Massey Ferguson, I think TE-20, at the family (moonshine) farm. It was finally retired around 15 years ago and replaced with a MF 165. I hear you about the clutch--sometimes I feel I can't even push it down far enough.
I also love driving it, apart from the fact the hydraulics are somewhat off, so the front/rear lift won't ever stay in position.
The smaller tractors now mostly use a hydrostatic transmission instead of a clutch[]. You just move a plate that changes the mechanical advantage of the engine powered hydraulic drive. It's basically another set of hydraulics but for driving the tractor.
[] https://youtu.be/TunlPGZ3UOg?t=69
Still rocking one over here. The thing had not been maintained for 20 years while still being used, ran several times with almost no oil in the engine, drank gasoil full of water.
And it still works.
Things were made different back then.
I looked up the manual, you got everything you need to repair it. Maintenance is extremely easy. Even have electric schema.
Now my BMW, I looked into the manual how to change a light. It said to go to the dealer lol.
Fuck the modern car / tractor / tools. I blame the people for that, we went from customer that demanded to be able to repair their stuff to people who are now mechanically illiterate. I'm not sure they would even know how to replace a tire on their Tesla :)
That's why manufacturer have all the latitude to do what they do. And that's why it didn't go very far with farmers.
> It said to go to the dealer lol.
It's amazing we let it slip this far. Even cars from a decade or so ago feel much more repairable. I bought an EV and I haven't even seen the motor yet, because I'm going to have to dismantle a bunch of plastic-clipped stuff to remove the frunk, and I've broken enough brittle tabs for one lifetime. God forbid they'd just use actual metal fasteners for this stuff.
And example, in the US, is how much the population makeup has changed over time:
https://dailyyonder.com/census-report-unusually-informative-...
Go back to 1910, and more than 50% of the population lived in rural areas. And rural doesn't mean "suburbs". As this trend continues further back in time, I'd expect that people in their 30s may be living in cities in 1910, but we often not born there. They migrated from rural areas to the city.
Which means that city people even into the 50s had a very, very rural background.
So people who grew up on farms miles from any town or neighbours or stores, who had to rely upon themselves entirely, were the ones buying machines. But if you look at today, many people are apartment dwellers, or live in townhomes. They don't even have a place to fix something, let alone the tools or background.
I could fix any small engine before I was 10, work on cars before I could drive, and it's because you just picked up this stuff in a rural area. I guess my point is, if you don't know how to fix anything, and no one around you does except for specialists?
Then you probably won't care about owner repairability as much.
Sad, but probably a likely reason why we're where we are.
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Yeah that also.
It's even worst tho, one day I layed a little bit against the front of the car and it made a reverse bump in the bodywork right on my ass.
Got a 2000 Suzuki that is full metal.
I think the trend of plastic went around 2000 to 2010 because of regulation on crash, plastic absorbs better the kinetic energy so we don't get our head smashed.
But yeah, no excuse to not make it easy to dismantle. It's the equivalent of Volkswagen using all kind of different screws to hold the plastic protection under the car, so that the average Joe who has standards screw drivers can't bleed his oil himself or change the gasoline filter.
This is maddening but you don't know it when you buy the car. It's only later.
Fortunately there's less mechanical stuff to break or go bad on EVs.
Did yours have a foot feed for the accelerator? I've never seen one without a hand feed for the rpm's on the steering column.
The fancy ones had an accelerator pedal, but most just had the lever on the steering column.
Wild. We ran a 175 and 1100 for our daily tractors before Grandpa died and I quit farming (big ass John Deere machines for the real work at planting and harvest though).
They're phenomenal little machines that can do 99% of what you need. It blows my mind that for years, Grandpa farmed with a little Ford smaller than the 175. I can't imagine planting with that thing. The ww2 generation really were tough as nails.
The one I drove (and a much older MF as well) had both. A lever on the steering column, as well as a foot pedal. I've never seen anyone without one elsewhere either, maybe they were only sold that way in my country.
Mine and a pedal and steering column lever, so I guess I got one of the fancy ones!
So our main small tractors were a 175 and an 1100. The 1100 had a bucket but I would've killed for a bucket on that little 175. Man that thing was handy. You could drive it through the yard without leaving tire tracks.
"Mash the foot feed" is a phrase you'll hear mostly in the southern US, and rarely elsewhere, including HN.
I shamefully have some Facebook Marketplace notifications for some Massy tractors. I'd love one. I don't even have land to use them, I just think they are neat.
I wonder if it's legal to just park your tractor in a regular parking spot across your apartment. I'm European so we have small parking spots. But would a small tractor fit in the parking spot of the biggest Ford truck?
Tractors are tall but generally not that much wider or longer than a car. Small ones, especially, are pretty manageable.
Definitely
You'll likely appreciate this then: https://farmboymusic.bandcamp.com/track/we-couldnt-start-the...
My father drove one of those in his childhood. Now retired, he has bought a used one and uses it to maintain about an acre of land (and his grandkids love helping him).
Once, it broke down, and I was astonished to see that there are forums dedicated to this tractor. If I remember correctly, it was a problem with the fuel line that is rather common, and we managed to fix it thanks to these communities.
As I was researching it, I read stories of MF135s found abandoned in a ditch and starting immediately again. A robustness that makes this and other models popular in Africa...
> The air filter was basically a shisha-pipe that bubbled the incoming air through wire wool and engine oil.
What is a shisha-pipe?
The other name for these filters are "oil bath filters" basically it snorkles the intake air through oil and that sticks to any dust and dirt.
Class of Middle Eastern tabletop usually-tobacco smoking devices with water based filtering
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hookah
Also known as hookah or just waterpipe.
Basically a fancy bong.
with a spanner in one hand and YouTube into the other
There are so many useful videos on this stuff, but unfortunately the majority of the population still seems reluctant to learn.
I'm not sure the majority of the population will ever need, or even want, to learn to bleed fuel lines, so I wouldn't consider it reluctance. And I would wager that the majority of the (internet) population does engage in learning activities on the regular.
My son recently broke the string on the light cord in the bathroom. I opened it up in perhaps the naive expectation that someone would have designed that in such a way that the string can be reattached. Sadly it wasn't.
In fact when you open the interior plastic piece the whole thing springs apart and everything from the clicking mechanism to the electrical terminals explode in different directions.
Thankfully, someone had uploaded a video of a very similar switch and, after a few cross words (man I hate assembling mechanisms with springs), I had a new overhand knot in the string and all of the contacts, springs and terminals back in place.
I would, without doubt, drive down to a shop and buy a new one next time...
The ones here in the UK have these little plastic connectors on the string. The switch itself has a very short string coming out of it(<10cm), the plastic connector and then the main pull cord. These connectors are simple tubes with an opening that hold and hide the knots. Makes changing the pull cord quite easy, you just feed it through the hole in the connector, tie a simple knot at the end and pull it back into the connector body.
I actually had one of these connectors break on a bathroom light and just 3D printed a new one. But it should be fairly trivial to add one of these to any light pull you already have.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5140505 (not my design)
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I think this kind of thing is much more commonplace than you think.
Never underestimate a young person and their phone. They not only use youtube or chatgpt to solve daily problems, but date, pay bills, and communicate with their friends using mostly videos/photos/emojis (and occasionally english).
Tangential, but made me think of this YouTube channel I like.
I have no plans to own a tractor but for some reason many others and I enjoy videos like this one:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pQO-pVxvKvA
New Zealand tree farmer Marty T has been posting detailed "back from the dead" tractor / bulldozer / grader / etc. restoration project videos for some time.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVvO1tKKjRQ
* https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrCvcRxFfyzt3vJmctRaN...
etc. Also hydropower from old washing machine parts and other associated stuff you do on the land videos.
Possibly a result of a high Systemising Quotient (SQ)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathising%E2%80%93systemisin...
The name of the brand is "Massey Ferguson" not "Massy Fergusson".
The reason I know that is not that I'm a farmer. It's that 20 years ago a bunch of friends and I wrote and performed a parody song of Gainsbourg/Bardot song "Harley Davidson" where the motorbike brand was replaced with the tractor one.
"Je n'ai besoin de personne en Harley Davidson"
became
"Je n'ai besoin de personne en Massey Ferguson".
I'm now imagining J'taime with tractors and Brigitte Bardot with an ear of corn in her mouth.
> I imagine the clutch is easier on the knees these days! Modern tractors don't really have a clutch. I mean they sorta do, but it's electronic. Even on sizable consumer positioned tractors(I have a JD 5055, but it applies to almost all the JD models), there's just a lever for forward, N, and reverse. Gear shifters work MUCH MUCH better now.
When I was younger I absolutely HATED changing gear on the tractor - it was a matter of dropping the revs which caused a dive, then a clunk finding the gear, then a jolt as the gear took hold and the revs came back up
I never felt in control of that old beast
Changing gears while driving? Are you sure you where supposed to? Many old tractors are without synced drives, so you are supposed to select gear before you start driving. Of course you can change when driving, but then you have to match revs to not get the drop betwen
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Ha ha, that's such a wonderful description, that's exactly how it feels!
I have the original 1940's Minneapolis Moline R and my wife has the original Farmall H and we both currently live in the city (but grew up farming or close to it) so we're not city kids, but somewhere stuck in between. I deeply get the feeling of using a non-tech machine, and how simple it is but intuitive to use. We used a pain mixing stick to check the gas level in our tractors on the farm, I don't think the gas gauges ever worked. You'd have to whack the starter with a wrench since they didn't ever work half the time. They worked over 60 years before they got their first oil change (my grandpa didn't believe in changing them - but my dad and I think it's just because you'll never get the canister filter to seal ever again if you did change it)
Great memories.
My Ford 2N has exactly two gauges: oil pressure, and ammeter. And the ammeter doesn't work.
But the tractor does.
Those are so cool. First motorized thing I ever drove was some 1950s Ford tractor, as a little kid. My uncle showed me how to use it. I almost had to stand with both feet on the clutch and pull myself up to release it, while my brother manned the wheel and throttle separately.
I wasn't driving too much, but grew up with my uncle and grandfather using Ursus C-335, which is probably from the 70s. They said they traded an ox for it 40-50 years ago, still in use almost daily. Effectively zero electronics.
I went through my teenager years driving one of those MF 135 machines. A very versatile tractor. I enjoyed driving tractors (including a much older MF), when I eventually got my car's driver license some years later I found that driving cars weren't really that interesting.
During certain kinds of driving gear shifts became.. tricky. That's when I learned how to double-clutch, something I kept doing on cars as well, for many years after (think going steep uphill on snow and then having to shift into first gear without stopping)
My father still has one of these in orange and white. I remember when I was a little child and he would start it up, I could feel the concussion of the exhaust in my chest.
An awesome memory. Lovely things, these.
One of my early memories was driving a tractor like this hauling potato harvest with my late grandfather when his "big" tractor wouldn't start. Feels like a 1000 years ago...
I remember when I was young seeing a combine that had a radio and television in the cab. wow!
Now things have wrapped back around, and nobody would want that, they want less tech and to use their phone, lol.
Thanks for sharing all those experiences and tech explanations in how tractor clutches work everyone. Great thread to read. I'm kinda surprised the OP made the HN tops but DIY anything seems to be experiencing a Renaissance. (Not too big a surprise in HN I suppose)
You say “up until a year ago”, what ended up replacing it?
I’m in the market for a tractor in roughly that size, and am very tempted to just find an old machine in decent shape. I’d be very curious about the decision/experience if you did upgrade to something more modern?
The old machines are rock solid. They really just keep going and going.
Really the only reason we got a new tractor was for the cabin with AC. That does make it a lot easier to spend an entire day working field. Otherwise you have to deal with whatever weather it is outdoors which can be unpleasant if it's very cold or very hot.
You also get a radio to listen to, which is nice.
I loved the MF 135 my neighbour had. It was great. The injector pump had failed and we'd swapped it with one off a marine version of the Perkins AD3, which had a reasonably "opened up" governor on it. Flat it out could do a whopping 20mph!
Basic models still sell like hot cakes in India. I see them all the time.
https://masseyfergusonindia.com/massey-ferguson/
Must be used all around the world. My parents had one on our farm in the 70s. Maybe it is still there- as a "back up" tractor. I remember it well.
I spent the night on Flatéy, a 2km long Icelandic island, in 2024, and there were around a half dozen Massey Fergusons strewn about.
The old church had a mural of Icelandic Jesus wearing a fisherman’s sweater.
While I love wrenching on cars, I imagine a tractor like this would scratch a different itch—something more latent, leftover from childhood.
Do you still have the Massy?
I do, but a friend is taking care of the farm now. I moved back to the big city lights (Munich, as fate would have it).
> no fancy technology in it at all
It's amazing we can use huge machinery with internal combustion engines and declare it "no fancy technology"
Any technology from before the time of your grandparents, and often parents, is usually perceived to be "not fancy". Because then those elders can't tell you in your childhood what life was like before that technology. So in your lived experience that technology was always there. Reading history later on, doesn't change your emotional experiences.
Freeze LLM progress right here and the future is still totally inconcievable. Humans who have only ever known being able to talk to machines...
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Disagree. There's lots of products and goods that have become less fancy as a result of changes in labor/material cost as industrialization ran its course and the old way is considered the fancy way.
Wood furniture joined with glue and pegs rather than inserts and screws. Solid wood furniture at all. Leather and natural fibers gave way to plastics. Ornate castings gave way to simple stampings and simply castings (where things are still cast).
An internal combustion engine may be complex, but it's not fancy. I can see and touch and understand every part of it. I can maintain and modify and repair it. This is not true for fancy electronics and certainly not locked-down proprietary firmware.
For every modern car I had or used in the last 20 years, the engine itself never was a problem, other than the regular maint, oil, filters, belts, plugs, cables...
Now, electronics problems, albeit relativelly rare, were far more common and fucking expensive.
And then, but this more due to the state of modern roads and streets than the car themselves, suspension issues.
The magic of an engine is less in how it operates, and more in how it was built. At least around the time they started showing up, manufacturing lots of precision metal parts was not trivial.
Although modern electronics take this further, with both operation and construction being utterly complex.
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Any sufficiently mundane technology is indistinguishable from... furniture?
Nice one. Added to https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup
Maybe it is fancy to you now, but with a few primitive hand tools and no docs at all, a HS graduate can take it apart and figure out how it works.
Try doing the same on the ECU in your car. I'll wait.
I learned how engines worked by taking apart, cleaning and reassembling an ancient lawnmower engine so I could use it on my go-kart. I then learned how cars worked by taking one apart and putting it back together again.
Neither of those machines had a transistor in them. It was all basic electricity.
> HS graduate can take it apart and figure out how it works.
Sure you wouldn't like a qualifier on that? I've definitely met some HS graduates that would not be able to do this.
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We also don't call a hoe fancy technology, but it is.
I don't know about you, but my mother is definitely not technology
The hoe wasn't fancy, but the plow was (at the time).
Yeah, I was introspecting as I wrote that!