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Comment by simplyluke

23 days ago

Late to the party here, so I don't expect this to get a lot of traction, but I'd like to point out that part of the reason this hasn't existed until recently as an option in the US is because it's functionally illegal for it to exist.

> The 12-valve Cummins is arguably the most widely understood diesel engine in North America. Every independent shop, every shade-tree mechanic with a set of wrenches, every farmer who grew up turning bolts has encountered one.

That's great! I'd point out the 12 valve wasn't introduced until the 90s, but that's kind of immaterial -- it's as simple to work on as any other mechanically injected analog diesel is and they were in widespread use for nearly a century before that. One immediately wonders why we moved away from these and towards more complex options, and why this startup has to remanufacture old engines instead of sourcing new engines. The answer among those of us who care about right to repair tends to be "evil corporations want to make proprietary systems that require ongoing fees!" which is true for John Deere, but also, the EPA mandated DEF/DPF systems + limp modes on all farm equipment since 2014, and the new relaxed standards include complicated rules about what percentage into limp mode they go at different intervals during different periods of time after those notoriously unreliable systems start to have errors. You can't do that without modern ECUs!

I'm all for reducing the harm caused by running diesel engines in the most densely populated cities on the planet (DEF and similar systems are about particulate emissions, not carbon), but we're being naive if we pretend that extending these regulations to farm equipment isn't a huge factor in why that same equipment has gotten more expensive and less reliable over the past decade.

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simplyluke

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Jedd  22 days ago

> US is because it's functionally illegal for it to exist.

This feels like one of those 'burying the lede' situations.

Can you explain what's functionally illegal (and I admit that I'm mildly curious about the distinction of functional illegality and non-functional illegality) about this existing?

I'm as breathless as you are, after reading that second paragraph, but I nonetheless remain ignorant about the nuances of the legality of this situation.

  • simplyluke  22 days ago

    Basically every diesel engine after the early 2010s needed to have several emissions systems (EGR, DPF + DEF). You can do some reading on them if you're curious, but they basically all reduce reliability, efficiency (DPFs choke exhaust, and airflow is critical to a diesel running well), and power from the same engine without them.

    In terms of legality, it means manufactures need to include all of those systems and their associated complexity, but the way that this startup is getting around it is using engines that were built before those requirements and are thus grandfathered into not needing them.

    Also on the legal side, there's a thriving black market of mechanics who are willing to rip all those systems out of diesel engines. It's not uncommon to see double-digit percent increases in both power and fuel economy after it's done. The EPA has prosecuted a few cases against shops and parts suppliers for those "diesel deletes"

    • testing22321  21 days ago

      > Basically every diesel engine after the early 2010s needed to have several emissions systems (EGR, DPF + DEF)

      Not true at all.

      Every diesel engine sold after the early 2010s is not permitted to emit a certain amount of soot particles of certain sizes, and not permitted to emit certain concentrations of certain gases.

      Manufacturers don’t have to use a DPF or EGR or DEF to achieve that. They can do it however they want.

      Having lived around Africa for three years and in Latin America for two, I’m extremely happy the EPA doesn’t let vehicles belch black smoke into the air.

      FWIW I’m a car nut, currently own a diesel with all those systems. Have also owned a 6BT 12 and 24 valve. I do not want to stand, or have my kid stand near the exhaust.

  • happyopossum  22 days ago

    > Can you explain what's functionally illegal

    GP explained it right here:

    > the EPA mandated DEF/DPF systems + limp modes on all farm equipment since 2014

  • infecto  22 days ago

    I don’t recall exactly wha the Trump admin has changed but I know there have been changes on emission requirements. The way I understood this is historically all equipment with diesel motors have had pretty strict requirements for emissions and an engine like this would simply not be possible.

    My take on this is you are throwing all the good things away about modern engines. You could easily make a right to repair tractor with low tech but still enjoy modern improvements.