Comment by jasonjmcghee
17 hours ago
There are plenty of engineers that couldn't work without a modern IDE or in languages without memory management.
Or without the ability to use a library from GitHub / their package manager.
It doesn't feel THAT much different to me.
"Engineer" as a term might drift. There are "web developers" that can only use webflow / wordpress.
> couldn't work
"Couldn't", or "wouldn't"? Early in my career I'd be happy doing anything basically, not much I "couldn't" do, given enough time. But nowadays, there is a long list of things I wouldn't do, even if I know I could, just because it's not fun.
It should probably be "would initially struggle to be as efficient without them."
This is not a binary.
All those examples are fundamentally different because those are hard-coded, deterministic programs/algorithms/libraries.
Engineer as a term has already drifted vastly since nobody in the field of "Software Engineering" is actually an Engineer if we go by a strict definitions.
Engineers are accredited and in some countries even come with a title.
> ... nobody in the field of "Software Engineering" is actually an Engineer if we go by a strict definitions.
This is a pet peeve of mine, so while I understand what you mean, I will challenge you to come up with a strict definition that excludes software engineering!
And since I've had this discussion before, I'll pre-emptively hazard a guess that the argument boils down to "rigor", and point out that a) economic feasibility is a key part of engineering, b) the level of rigor applied to any project is a function of economics, and c) the economics of software projects is a very wide range.
Put another way, statistically most devs work on projects where the blast radius of failure is some minor inconvenience to like, 5 users. We really don't need rigor there, so I can see where you're coming from. But on the other extreme like aviation software, an appropriately extreme level of rigor is applied.
>I will challenge you to come up with a strict definition that excludes software engineering!
"Structured, mature, legally enforced, physically grounded standards based approach to the construction of repeatable, reliable, verifiable, artifacts under stable (to the degree that matters) external constraints".
Some niche software development (e.g. NASA/JPL coding projects with special rules, practices, MISRA etc) can look like that.
99.9% of the time though, software "engineering" is an ad hoc, mix and match, semi-random, always changing requirements and environments, half-art half-guess, process, by unlicensed practicioners, that is only regulated at some minor aspects of its operation (like GDPR, or accessibility requirements), if that.
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I don't really disagree with you. I was just pointing out how the parent mentioned how "engineering" is changing when it already has changed many many times.
Of course I want the best of the best who are top notch and rigorously trained working on mission critical software.
It's a pet peeve because the truth hurts. We (most of us) aren't doing anything that resembles engineering.
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“Accredited”
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I started my career as a machine designer (mechanical engineering), designing some machines for FMCG factories.
It wasn't that much different from SWE - mostly looking up catalogs, connecting certain pre-made pieces together with custom parts and lots of testing of the final plan to make sure there are no collisions and every movement is constrained properly.
95% of the time no load or sizing calculations were necessary - we just oversized everything based on tacit knowledge (the greybeards reviewing the plans) since these machines were not mass produced and choosing somewhat bigger parts was not expensive given that these machines would operate and produce value 24/7 for years.
(I hope the analogy to software engineering is visible!)
What I'm saying is that the level of "engineering rigor" heavily depends on the field where engineers are operating within. Even certain SWE fields (healthcare, finance, aviation etc.) have more regulation and require more rigor than others.
Engineers are accredited in the US too. But there is an "industrial exemption" that allows you to work as an engineer without a license for certain kinds of employers. You just can't offer engineering services to the public without a license. This is more important in some fields than in others.
Where I work, there are plenty of non licensed engineers, but we pay a 3rd party agency for regulatory approval. The people who work for that agency are licensed engineers. Their expertise is knowing the regulations backwards and forwards.
Here's what I think is happening within industry. More and more work done by people with engineering job titles consists of organizing and arranging things, fitting things together, troubleshooting, dealing with vendors, etc. The reason is the complexity of products. As the number of "things" in a product increases by O(n), the number of relationships increases by O(n^2), so the majority of work has to do with relationships. A small fraction of engineers engages in traditional quantitative engineering. In my observation, the average age of those people is around 60, with a few in their 70s.
as an actual engineer i just feel sad. i should probably feel happy but i like solving problems. fml i have becomea luddite.
I get it. But there’s plenty of engineering to do in any serious system. I am in a very AI forward company using AI for everything, but I still am solving engineering problems every day.
i think you accidentally overlooked accredited engineers who happen to be writing software
Of course there are engineers who write software, I'm just speaking about the majority of roles where thats not the case.
The concept of engineer predates the accreditation systems you’re referring to by centuries.
The huge difference is that we don't know the cost we're going to end up with.
Will you have AI at the cost of a slack subscription? At the cost of a teammate? Will it not be available and you'll have to hire anthropic workers with AI access?
Local AI models are already more than capable enough writing code that surpasses the ability of any bad or even mediocre engineer. That is not something we need to worry about.
In a way, this is less of a cost issue than the fact that some/many engineers do not seem to be willing or able to host things themselves anymore and will happily outsource every part of their stack to managed services, be it CDN, hosting, databases, etc. I don't know why that's not more alarming than the LLMs.
Qwen 3.6 27B is shockingly good, just to add to your point.
Thank goodness for China or Silicon Valley capitalists would be locking us down into an unimaginably awful dystopia. Though they're not done trying.
At least today, it isn't practical for most people to run these models locally- I think adding a dependency on a cloud service is different enough to some local (possibly open source) tool like an IDE.
Self hosting at a reasonable scale is much cheaper than people think. I am running clusters of DGX Spark machines with BiFrost load balancers in our company and for client projects. They work flawlessly!
128 GB unified memory, Nvidia chip and ARM CPU for just around 3k€ net. They easily push ~400 input and ~100 output tokens per second per device on say gpt-oss-120b. With two devices in a cluster, thats enough performance for >20 concurrent RAG users or >3 "AI augmented" developers.
And they don't even pull that much power.
factor in depreciation and energy costs, and a subscription might just be cheaper.
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Slack, GitHub, Figma, AWS, etc
Lots of people use firebase, supabase etc.
Many people's jobs are centered around using Salesforce
It all makes me uncomfortable- I want to be able to work without internet. But it's getting more difficult to do it
"What kind of engineer are you" - Jesse Plemons wearing bright-red sunglasses
IDEs are free. Libraries are free. Languages are free. This is becoming more like an internet subscription where you’re at the mercy of Anthropic the same way you may be at the mercy of Comcast.
I’m sure you can see the difference between a garbage collector and a nondeterministic slop generator
But it feels good to equivocate, so here we are.
> IDEs are free. Libraries are free. Languages are free. This is becoming more like an internet subscription where you’re at the mercy of Anthropic the same way you may be at the mercy of Comcast.
Ollama/llamafile/vllm/llama.cpp are free. Qwen/kimi/deepseek are free. Pi.dev/OpenCode are free. If you're using a SaaS AI subscription that's fine, but that's hardly the only option.
The comparison to me sounds like "you dont have to take a plane to travel between countries, paddle boats exist".
How much does the hardware to run them on cost? Especially to get decently sized models running at decent speeds.
Not all IDEs are free. Not all LLMs are subscriptions.
> Not all
is doing a lot of work to avoid engaging with the actual argument.