Comment by maxclark
18 hours ago
And almost by happenstance Apple. Turns out they have a great platform for inference and torched almost nothing comparatively on Siri. The Apple/Gemini deal is interesting, Google continues to demonstrate their willingness to degrade their experience on Apple to try and force people to switch.
If you do the math (I did), in 2 years, open source models that you can run on a future MacBook Pro will be as capable as the frontier cloud models are today. Memory bandwidth is growing rapidly, as is the die area dedicated to the neural cores. And all the while, we have the silicon getting more power efficient and increasingly dense (as it always does). These hardware improvements are coming along as the open source models improve through research advancements. And while the cloud models will always be better (because they can make use of as much power as they want to - up in the cloud), what matters to most of us is whether a model can do a meaningful share of knowledge work for us. At the same time, energy consumption to run cloud infrastructure is out-pacing the creation of new energy supply, which is a problem not easily solved. I believe scarcity of energy will increasingly drive frontier labs toward power efficiency, which necessarily implies that the Pareto frontier of performance between cloud and local execution will narrow.
A Opus 4.7/Gpt5.5 class model is 5 trillion parameters[1].
To run a 8 bit quantized version of that you need roughly 5TB of RAM.
Today that is around 18 NVidia B300. That's around $900,000, without including the computers to run them in.
It's true that the capability of open source models is improving, but running actual frontier models on your MPB seems a way off.
[1] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2042123561666855235?s=20 (and Elon has hired enough people out of those labs to have a fair idea)
People had this "why you probably can't run a GPT-4 (or even GPT-3.5) class model on your MBP anytime soon" conversation before.
Today's LLMs are able pack much more capabilities into fewer parameters compared to 2023. We might still be at the very rudimentary phase of this technology there are low-hanging efficiency gains to be had left and right. These models consume many orders of magnitude more energy than a human brain, this all seems like room for improvement.
The right question: is there a law in information theory that fundamentally prevents a 70B model of any architecture from being as smart as Opus 4.7?
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Opus and Gpt are generic LLMs with knowledge on all sort of topics. For specific use cases you probably don't need all the parameters? Suppose you want to generate code with opencode, what part of the generic LLM is needed and what parts can be removed?
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The OP said "as capable as the frontier cloud models are today" which might assume model improvements that do more with less. Opus 4.7/Gpt5.5 performance might be achievable with a fraction of the parameters.
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I wish more people were more aware of this. I think so much of the current optimism is based on "it doesn't matter if companies are raising prices since I'm just going to run the model locally", doesn't fly.
As far as I can tell Minimax M2.7 is better than anything available a year ago, but it runs on an ordinary PC. Will that continue? Not sure, but the trend has continued for the last two years and I don't know of any fundamental limits the models are approaching.
Do that will only be possible with something like better 3D NAND flash memory, needs a new hardware. People are already trying to bring that the market. Contemplated taking a compiler position in such a company.
I think your own math leads to the conclusion the public apis are not serving models of that size. They couldn’t afford to
> A Opus 4.7/Gpt5.5 class model is 5 trillion parameters[1].
You could run it on a cluster of nodes that each do some mix of fetching parameters from disk and caching them in RAM. Use pipeline parallelism to minimize network bandwidth requirements given the huge size. Then time to first token may be a bit slow, but sustained inference should achieve enough throughput for a single user. That's a costly setup of course, but it doesn't cost $900k.
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I did this calculation a bit ago and don't think frontier models are just a few MacBook Pro generations away. Yes numbers reliably go up in tech in general but in specific semiconductors & standards have long lead-times and published roadmaps, so we can have high confidence in what we're getting even in 3-4 years in terms of both transistor density and RAM speeds.
In mid-2028 we have N2E/N2P with around 15% greater transistor density than today's N3P, and by EOY2028 we'll likely have A14 with about 35-40% density improvement.
Meanwhile, we'll be on LPDDR6 by that point, which takes M-series Pros from 307GB/s -> ~400GB/s, and Max's from 614GB/s -> ~800GB/s.
Model improvements obviously will help out, but on the raw hardware front these aren't in the ballpark for frontier model numbers. An H100 has 3TB/s memory bandwidth, fwiw
What do you need 3 TB/s memory bandwidth for in a single user context? DeepSeek V4 pro (the latest near-SOTA model) has about 25 GB worth of active parameters (it uses a FP4 format for most layers) which gives 12 tok/s on a 307 GB/s platform as the current memory bandwidth bottleneck, maybe a bit less than that if you consider KV cache reads. That's not quite great but it's not terrible either for a pro quality model. Of course that totally ignores RAM limits which are the real issue at present: limited RAM forces you to fetch at least some fraction of params from storage, which while relatively fast is nowhere near as fast as RAM so your real tok/s are far lower (about 2 for a broadly similar model on a top-end M5 Pro laptop).
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That's not "math". That's a "wild guess", or baseless extrapolation at best.
My son doubled in size in the first 8 months of his life. At age 12, he will be larger than the Moon.
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So long as you don't require deep search grounding like massive web indexes or document stores which are hard to reproduce locally. You can do local agentic things that get close or even do better depending on search strategy, but theoretically a massive cloud service with huge data stores at hand should be able to produce better results.
In practice unless you're doing some kind of deep research thing with the cloud, it'll try to optimize mostly for time and get you a good enough answer rather than spending an hour or two. An hour of cloud searching with huge data stores is not equivalent to an hour of local agentic searching, presumably.
I think that problem will improve a little in the coming years as we kind of create optimized data curation, but the information world will keep growing so the advantage will likely remain with centralized services as long as they offer their complete potential rather than a fraction.
Show your working / explain your math?
https://xkcd.com/605/
They also degrade their own direct services with little warning or thought put into change management, so, to be fair, Apple may be getting the same quality of service as the rest of us.
I think that's just how Google is, by nature. They don't intentionally degrade their services. They just aren't a customer centric company. They run on numbers. As a corporate, it doesn't really encourage support and maintenance work either.
Indeed. I'm wondering if Apple's "miss the train" with AI ended up being a blessing for them. Not only in the Google deal but also there's a lot of people doing interesting stuff locally..
Apple is basically in the same boat as AMD and Intel. They have a weak, raster-focused GPU architecture that doesn't scale to 100B+ inference workloads and especially struggles with large context prefill. TPUs smoke them on inference, and Nvidia hardware is far-and-away more efficient for training.
What do TPUs do to improve on GPUs at inference?
More compute
This doesn't get talked about enough - the GPU is weak, weak, weak. And anyone who can fix them will go to a serious AI company (for 2-3x the salary).
The GPU is monstrously good. Depending on the workload, the M1 series GPU using 120W could beat an RTX 3090 using 420W.
Same with the CPU. Linux compiled faster on an M1 than on the fastest Intel i9 at the time, again using only 25% of the power budget.
And the M-series has only gotten better.
It is kind of sad Apple neglects helping developers optimize games for the M-series because iDevices and MacBooks could be the mobile gaming devices.
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Apple is in a much better boat than AMD or Intel. They have a gigantic warchest and can just snap up whoever looks like a leader coming out of the bubble burst.
It's becoming increasingly clear that there is no moat on models. The winners will be the ones who have existing products and ecosystems they can tie AI in to. You will pay adobe for credits because that will be the only AI that works in Photoshop, you will pay microsoft because only theirs will work on your microsoft cloud apps.
Open AI has nothing. Their tech will rapidly be devalued by free models the moment they stop lighting stacks of cash on fire.
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