Comment by JohnMakin
7 hours ago
"at least" is doing a lot of work here. That's just what was analyzed. You have to assume the behavior is much more prevalent.
7 hours ago
"at least" is doing a lot of work here. That's just what was analyzed. You have to assume the behavior is much more prevalent.
"14x times" to me sounds like statistically "zero" since I assume the sample size would be in the millions "at least."
When the IJ says it, they mean they have proof that they will stand behind of 14 examples. They decidedly aren't saying that it only happened 14 times.
How many millions of police officers do you think there are?
How many of those do you think have open and available records for their use of surveillance tech?
So, as long as something only grievously harms a small percentage of people, it's fine. Good to know.
Humanity has used strategic nukes a statistically "zero" number of times, therefore nuclear proliferation is not a concern, nor should it be.
if 1 of those 14 was your daughter, wife, sister, mom you would not be writing this. 14x is exactly 14x too many
It is a given that any power will be abused. However not giving power out is often worse that the abuse of power.
The real question is what do we do to detect and prevent that abuse so it is minimized. All too often people are "this person is mostly on my side so I will overlook their abuse" which is the wrong answer.
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Why? Is there something about their dataset and/or methodology that you can identify as deficient that would indicate that the rate is much higher than what was published?
I agree with the sentiment, but if you want anyone to do anything about it we need evidence and not vibes.
I'm trying to help you make your case. So far the only comments in this thread are the most low-effort reactions that don't say anything substantive.
> I agree with the sentiment, but if you want anyone to do anything about it we need evidence and not vibes.
I don't believe your concern trolling tone here - I'm not asking anyone to do anything either. I'm pointing out this is likely much more prevalent, based on the absolute fact most abuse/stalking cases go unreported, so this is likely a small subset of a larger problem. The "evidence" is these cases existing at all. In any case, flock data is mostly invisible and the police that use it get very little oversight. So how do you suggest I get any evidence? Shall I hack into their systems? Get real.
Even in the article:
> Most incidents came to light only after victims reported the officers’ behavior to the police, typically in the context of a broader stalking allegation.
> The 14 cases listed below are almost certainly an undercount. Not all police misconduct gets detected, and some cases likely get resolved quietly. Officers frequently cite vague or inaccurate reasons for their searches in ALPR systems, sometimes to evade detection of misconduct.
And regarding this:
> I'm trying to help you make your case.
Nah, I don't believe you.
The evidence is just "human nature". Honestly, it's just negligence at this point to give people power over others without due oversight and accountability. But it's nice we have concrete examples of abuse to help motivate action.
The data set IJ is providing here is situations where stalking was reported/suspected, investigated, discovered, and prosecuted. Other stalking cases could fail any one of those stages and be invisible to the public.
This. They almost certainly use it for parallel construction 99% of the time. Just get lucky and "show up" when your spouse has someone over.
These 14 just were sloppy and left such an egregious fact pattern in their wake that a public record was created (firing, charges filed, etc)
> Other stalking cases could fail any one of those stages and be invisible to the public.
"could" is doing a lot of work here...
> where stalking was reported/suspected, investigated, discovered, and prosecuted.
No, that's not what IJ said. From the article: "Nearly all of these officers were criminally charged and lost their jobs, either by resigning or getting fired."
So not all 14 of these were "reported/suspected, investigated, discovered, and prosecuted".
If you're trying to make significant social change, make the strongest argument that you are capable of.
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The decades-long history of police abuse of power isn't enough? There is not a single power they have not abused eventually, and it's quite obvious that introducing new powers will inevitability be exploited.
A "review of media reports" is not going to capture any incidents that the media didn't report on. That doesn't strike me as likely to capture every incident, or even a majority of incidents.
LOVEINT.
This term was coined at the NSA where roughly 1 case is reported per year and overwhelmingly through self-reporting during polygraph exams.
That's quite different from this situation.
> Why?
FTA: The 14 cases listed below are almost certainly an undercount.
I feel that supports the original comment, considering it's all subjective.
Now, you are going to be tempted to start arguing that "almost certainly an undercount" doesn't support the original comment. But remember, it's subjective, and any reasonable person reading that comment and the article could see how "at least" could be seen as doing a lot of work.
"almost certainly an undercount." isn't the same thing as "prevalent", which was the accusation by the comment I was responding to.