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Comment by ssl-3

20 hours ago

It's all pretty nuanced. I don't know where to draw a line.

For instance: Busy intersections with 4-way stop signs are an interesting example of how laws don't quite fit.

It's obviously important to get the order right since nobody wants to be in a car crash today. But the law (often -- we've got 50 states worth of driving laws and they aren't all the same) says something very specific and simplistic about the order: First-come, first-served; if order is unclear, yield to the right. Always wait for the intersection to be completely clear before proceeding.

That sounds nice and neat and it looks good on paper. It was surely at least a very easy system to describe and then write down.

But reality is very different: 4 way stops are an elaborate dance of drivers executing moves simultaneously and without conflict. For instance: Two opposite, straight-going cars can proceed concurrently works fine. All 4 directions can turn right, concurrently. Opposing left turns at the same time? Sure! While others are also turning right? Why not.

When there's room for a move and it creates no conflict, then that move works fine.

We all were taught how these intersections are supposed to work, but then reality ultimately shows us how they do work. And the dance works. It's efficient. Nobody gets ticketed for safely dancing that dance. (And broadly-speaking, a timid law-abiding driver who doesn't know the dance will be let through...eventually.)

The main problem with the dance is that it's difficult to adequately describe and write down and thus codify in law.

But maybe we should try, anyway.

The nuance for four-way stops is pretty simple. First come, first serve queue. Except you are allowed to jump out of order if you jumping out of order doesn't slow the people ahead of you down.

You’ve done a great job of explaining exactly how 4 way stops are terrible , and why they should be eliminated.

Only two countries make heavy use of them, so it seems less effort to get rid of them and the AI driverless world will be better without them

  • What I've described is the reality that I, along with self-driving Waymos in California, exist within.

    There isn't a generation alive that didn't grow up with this reality in these places.

    ---

    Now, if you want me to agree that there are much better methods than stop signs to control traffic at intersections, then sure: I can agree with that. Absolutely.

    But I'll agree only on one condition: That you cease immediately with all attempts to make perfect be the enemy of good.

    • > There isn't a generation alive that didn't grow up with this reality in these places.

      Less than 5% of the world’s population have to deal with them.

      We don’t need to aim anywhere near perfect- good enough would be a vast improvement

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