I agree with what you're saying, of course, simplicity is better, etc.
But the nav on your blog is a terrible example.
Firstly, you don't get to just click on the links to go to where you want to go, you first have to click the three-lines button, even on a desktop with an enormous screen.
And secondly, despite your claims about an "enhanced experience with a modern browser", it seems to work exactly as if there was no enhancement at all? I click the three-lines menu and it takes me to a new page listing the links I can click. The "X" button to "close" the menu navigates me back particularly quickly, but that is all that I can tell that is unusual.
I'm using Firefox 136 on Ubuntu.
And in any event, this is all unnecessary, because you can make a nav by just putting a bunch of links at the top of the page, like HN does.
No, they're not related. The submission's article is about CSS view transitions. HATEOAS seems to involve interacting with an API, but linking between pages on a blog does not require this.
I have a question: After clicking on a blog in the listing page ("Collective Speed is..."), the page navigated to that particular blog. What CSS transitions are used to convert that title to a header? I saw some animation which pushed that title to become a header. How does that work? I'm curious
Would love to hear anecdata from others but I'd say...not really? I was a kid in those days but there's no way I'd make a server round trip for /menu/ to open a menu.
I just tried it on their website, using the desktop browser, and the experience is absolutely OK: you just get the menu as in any web app, and you can close it to go back, etc. Just an old-school page which is blazing fast ... because it is an old-school page. It renders faster than a typical animation to open a sidebar.
I dunno, it wants to challenge our dependence on javascript and then to make it work it needs to inject a “back” behavior into a normal link?
Js and fallbacks for menus is a solved issue.
this is just another form of LLM dunning krueger derangement where you think the LLM-suggested solution is novel because you haven’t encountered it before, or because you fundamentally don’t understand the underlying problems that we have already solved.
Yeah, I don't think the menu should've been a separate page. It can be made JavaScript-less as a dialog opened by the popover HTML attributes,[0] and the escape key would be able to close it.
I guess it doesn't have to use JavaScript for the back behavior. It could use a server-side rendered referrer if that hasn't been stripped by the browser?
You say that JavaScript and fallbacks for menus is a solved issue but the number of menus that are just an absolute clusterfuck is ridiculous on the web today. They're really not a solved issue, Progressive enhancement is hard to do. Genuinely hard in some cases.
On balance, while this is not without flaws, it's interesting. Accessibility, deep linking, reduction in cognitive load for the developer. There's some merit here.
...because the opening line of the blog post says he's been "building websites with LLMs", and then attempts to cutely redefine that abbreviation as "Lots of Little htMl pages" in a parenthetical.
It's, um. Not the best kind of communication, and very easily leads to this kind of misunderstanding.
How am I being hostile? I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web, and attempts to avoid it are quixotic at best.
That link is not nearly as convincing as you seem to think it is. I suppose that I will need to refute the points if I want you to stop sharing it, so here we go:
A browser extension has interfered with the site - okay? That can be true of literally anything. An extension can interfere with View Transitions too.
A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"? Does this author know how JavaScript works?
Internal IT policy has blocked dependencies - How? Are they bundled? Does this author still think modern websites load things like jQuery from a CDN? What year is it? (WYII from this point on, for the sake of brevity)
WIFI network has blocked certain CDNs - WYII
A user is viewing your site on a train which has just gone into a tunnel - The CSS and HTML won't load either!
A device doesn’t have enough memory available - WYII???
There’s an error in your JavaScript
- and, you don't have any tests? You didn't notice when developing the site? Can you not have errors in your CSS? Sure, an error in JS is worse, but that doesn't mean you should never use it.
An async fetch request wasn’t fenced off in a try catch and has failed - This usually wouldn't change anything. fetch failures are rarely actual errors (even a 500 response doesn't result in an exception), and it's async so it wouldn't affect the initial load.
A user has a JavaScript toggle accidentally turned off - The <noscript> tag exists.
A user uses a JavaScript toggle to prevent ads loading - <noscript>
An ad blocker has blocked your JavaScript from loading - Modern ad blockers are URL based. How are they loading literally anything else from my domain?
A user is using Opera Mini - No, they aren't.
A user has data saving turned on - Okay... And!??!?!
Rogue, interfering scripts have been added by Google Tag manager - Do I really need to explain how module scoping works here?
The browser has locked up trying to parse your JS bundle - This literally doesn't happen.
It's not "easier" using Javascript; raw Javascript websites are a nightmare to build, maintain and reason about. It is "easier" with Javascript + current-favourite-framework-of-the-day.
Also: accessibility, SEO, the all-new Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) thing, etc.
I agree with what you're saying, of course, simplicity is better, etc.
But the nav on your blog is a terrible example.
Firstly, you don't get to just click on the links to go to where you want to go, you first have to click the three-lines button, even on a desktop with an enormous screen.
And secondly, despite your claims about an "enhanced experience with a modern browser", it seems to work exactly as if there was no enhancement at all? I click the three-lines menu and it takes me to a new page listing the links I can click. The "X" button to "close" the menu navigates me back particularly quickly, but that is all that I can tell that is unusual.
I'm using Firefox 136 on Ubuntu.
And in any event, this is all unnecessary, because you can make a nav by just putting a bunch of links at the top of the page, like HN does.
Wow, I love it when people discover these NEW ways of doing things.
I've been trying to steer LLMs towards the Astro framework due to this - the island concept seems like a perfect fit
https://docs.astro.build/en/concepts/islands/
Isn't this just HATEOAS as espoused by libraries like htmx, datastar, hotwire etc.
https://htmx.org/essays/hateoas/
No, they're not related. The submission's article is about CSS view transitions. HATEOAS seems to involve interacting with an API, but linking between pages on a blog does not require this.
HATEOAS does not require interacting with an API.
I have a question: After clicking on a blog in the listing page ("Collective Speed is..."), the page navigated to that particular blog. What CSS transitions are used to convert that title to a header? I saw some animation which pushed that title to become a header. How does that work? I'm curious
That'd be the View Transition API. Specifically, it is a cross-document view transition. https://developer.chrome.com/docs/web-platform/view-transiti...
Really awesome new(ish) feature of the web platform. It doesn't yet have full support in Firefox unfortunately, but is supported in Chrome and Safari.
This is close to how things used to be, in the time before server-side includes.
isnt this just the old school way of making a static website? its nice and chill and peaceful
Would love to hear anecdata from others but I'd say...not really? I was a kid in those days but there's no way I'd make a server round trip for /menu/ to open a menu.
the go-to method is using frames.
OK...and what does that look like on a desktop browser?
Because if I click on a menu button on a desktop browser, I generally don't expect it to take over the entire page with a menu.
This seems like an example of unhelpfully mobile-centric website design, which has been becoming more prevalent in recent years.
I just tried it on their website, using the desktop browser, and the experience is absolutely OK: you just get the menu as in any web app, and you can close it to go back, etc. Just an old-school page which is blazing fast ... because it is an old-school page. It renders faster than a typical animation to open a sidebar.
I agree, but its not intrinsic to the approach of less JS and more pages.
You should of course not have a menu button on a desktop view. There is plenty of space to show the menu without hiding it behind a button.
Maybe it is you who are mobile centric?
I dunno, it wants to challenge our dependence on javascript and then to make it work it needs to inject a “back” behavior into a normal link?
Js and fallbacks for menus is a solved issue. this is just another form of LLM dunning krueger derangement where you think the LLM-suggested solution is novel because you haven’t encountered it before, or because you fundamentally don’t understand the underlying problems that we have already solved.
Yeah, I don't think the menu should've been a separate page. It can be made JavaScript-less as a dialog opened by the popover HTML attributes,[0] and the escape key would be able to close it.
[0]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/...
I guess it doesn't have to use JavaScript for the back behavior. It could use a server-side rendered referrer if that hasn't been stripped by the browser?
You say that JavaScript and fallbacks for menus is a solved issue but the number of menus that are just an absolute clusterfuck is ridiculous on the web today. They're really not a solved issue, Progressive enhancement is hard to do. Genuinely hard in some cases.
On balance, while this is not without flaws, it's interesting. Accessibility, deep linking, reduction in cognitive load for the developer. There's some merit here.
I'm unsure why you think this was an LLM-suggested solution.
...because the opening line of the blog post says he's been "building websites with LLMs", and then attempts to cutely redefine that abbreviation as "Lots of Little htMl pages" in a parenthetical.
It's, um. Not the best kind of communication, and very easily leads to this kind of misunderstanding.
Why do you think this is LLM?
[dead]
I just don't see the appeal when it's much easier to just build a nice website using JavaScript.
Google Search doesn't work without JavaScript.
Seriously, what's the point? Don't just reflexively downvote me. Try to articulate why this is a good idea. It's not that hard to use your words.
You're pre-emptive hostility seems rather unwarranted.
This article is my usual go-to and lists several reasons why JavaScript might not be available, and thus why you shouldn't take it for granted: https://piccalil.li/blog/a-handful-of-reasons-javascript-won...
I feel compelled to add:
- the user explicitly disabled JavaScript
- the browser does not support JavaScript (I sometimes view websites using elinks)
AFAIK screen readers also work better without JavaScript, so it's also an accessibility issue.
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How am I being hostile? I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web, and attempts to avoid it are quixotic at best.
That link is not nearly as convincing as you seem to think it is. I suppose that I will need to refute the points if I want you to stop sharing it, so here we go:
A browser extension has interfered with the site - okay? That can be true of literally anything. An extension can interfere with View Transitions too.
A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"? Does this author know how JavaScript works?
Internal IT policy has blocked dependencies - How? Are they bundled? Does this author still think modern websites load things like jQuery from a CDN? What year is it? (WYII from this point on, for the sake of brevity)
WIFI network has blocked certain CDNs - WYII
A user is viewing your site on a train which has just gone into a tunnel - The CSS and HTML won't load either!
A device doesn’t have enough memory available - WYII???
There’s an error in your JavaScript - and, you don't have any tests? You didn't notice when developing the site? Can you not have errors in your CSS? Sure, an error in JS is worse, but that doesn't mean you should never use it.
An async fetch request wasn’t fenced off in a try catch and has failed - This usually wouldn't change anything. fetch failures are rarely actual errors (even a 500 response doesn't result in an exception), and it's async so it wouldn't affect the initial load.
A user has a JavaScript toggle accidentally turned off - The <noscript> tag exists.
A user uses a JavaScript toggle to prevent ads loading - <noscript>
An ad blocker has blocked your JavaScript from loading - Modern ad blockers are URL based. How are they loading literally anything else from my domain?
A user is using Opera Mini - No, they aren't.
A user has data saving turned on - Okay... And!??!?!
Rogue, interfering scripts have been added by Google Tag manager - Do I really need to explain how module scoping works here?
The browser has locked up trying to parse your JS bundle - This literally doesn't happen.
4 replies →
> when it's much easier to just build a nice website using JavaScript
I'm currently building a web-based tool that uses dynamic forms for UI, without the help of of a framework (yeah I know; I have reasons). This is the result: https://github.com/KaliedaRik/sc-filter-builder/blob/main/js...
It's not "easier" using Javascript; raw Javascript websites are a nightmare to build, maintain and reason about. It is "easier" with Javascript + current-favourite-framework-of-the-day.
Also: accessibility, SEO, the all-new Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) thing, etc.
Why wouldn't google work without javascript? Just use some forms, submit the text the user entered, get back a page with the search results...
OP is right. a quick google (hehe) shows you they require it as of 2024.
1 reply →