Comment by socalgal2
2 days ago
> In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
Apple already does this and practically no one is outraged
2 days ago
> In my experience, once the issue is framed as 'Google will decide what you can do with your phone' every single person is immediately outraged.
Apple already does this and practically no one is outraged
Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.
Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.
The biggest mistake is that people trusted a company that, in reality, isn't that different from Apple. Just because everyone claimed Android as the true open source alternative to iOS, when only AOSP was that.
Yea agree. I reeeeally dont get why Google or Apple have good reputation at all.
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> Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.
Is that really so? Does the average iPhone user actually factor the app store tax into their decision to purchase the device? Or do they just assume that is just how all software works because they have no exposure to software ecosystems outside the iPhone app store
> Does the average iPhone user actually factor the app store tax into their decision to purchase the device?
As I'm the IT tech support for some family members, I certainly do. A lot less drama and garbage when using Apple products (generally speaking).
I've sysadmined Linux for a living for many moons now, and used to run Linux and then FreeBSD at home, and I switched to Apple for personal stuff during the PowerPC and early Mac OS 10.x timeframe because I did enough fiddling with tech at work and minimized it at home.
I used Linux desktops at work in the pre-COVID era when we still had offices and such. I now use a Apple laptop as I can get Unix-y tools to admin: I spend >80% of my time in Terminal (the rest in Safari and Mail).
They factor in a more "clean" appstore yes. Not the tax itself but they usually appreciate apple having more polished apps in general (given that the Google Playstore is full of trash).
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People do not buy Apple because of this. They buy Apple for other reasons and this comes along with it. Apple could allow side-loaded apps and not a single person would switch
> Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.
This is the narrative for us in developed nations, but the majority of users today are people who were in developing countries and got a mid-tier smartphone to chat with friends and do banking with the same values as Apple users.
this is that xkcd "regular people can only name a few common feldspars" meme. over 90% of consumers have no knowledge at all of tech corps' philosophy on user freedom, they just buy cheap phones that have good cameras and run instagram and tiktok well.
Thanks for the reminder, I needed that. I didn't know this xkcd, but I've bookmarked it.
I agree with this. The general population is hopeless, they will hand literally anything away for the least amount of friction. They are also profoundly ignorant.
The solution should be to provide the tools necessary to preserve as much agency using technology to people who want to. You should also keep in mind the middle tier technical people who need a bit of hand holding. But do not waste your time on the general public because they don't share or comprehend your goals.
No, they calculate in the fact of that lack of control into their purchase decision. They mostly didn't want that control in the first place. They just want to _______, for many things you can fill in the blank, including things like look good, appear classy, get high, get laid...
I respectfully disagree with "they calculate in the fact of that lack of control into their purchase decision".
The average person is not calculating anything but price, is it what everyone else is using, is it new etc. Very low level calculations. They aren't asking "can I install applications from outside the app store?". Etc.
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Yes, but most people don't realize it, simply because they have been conditioned from the beginning that the only way to run anything on an iOS device is via the app store.
With Apple customers, a better argument to make is to say that Apple applies a 30% 'tax' on all activity on their phones. That they are being forced to pay more compared to non Apple users in spite of having bought their device fair and square.
Developers may or may not pass on the fees to customers, but as a user I'm not forced to pay anything and it definitely doesn't apply to all activity on the phone. I pay the same for Netflix as any Android user does. My cell bill wouldn't drop 30% by switching to Android. When I buy something at Amazon I'm not paying more than you.
Also, you're overestimating the fees. Few apps or services hit the 30% threshold or stay there for long (the fee for subscriptions drops in the second year).
The real problem IMHO is Apple taking a significant amount out of developer pay checks. Users are fine. The impact is on developers.
I have been using Apple devices for almost 20 years, and I have never been forced to pay a 30% tax on all activity on my phone. I can avoid it by buying directly from the seller's website, and also I just avoid buying software subscriptions in general, but especially from the App Store.
99% of the payment activity I do on my phone (buying retail goods, travel arrangements, paying invoices) has no additional cost.
No? Apple charges a fee on every app sale. Where do you think the app makers pay that walled garden tax?
7 replies →
You're correct. You've just paid it on every app store purchase, and every in app purchase. That's because Apple, despite trying, have failed to completely lock in the payment infrastructure.
They really want to though. Maybe consider that.
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Flaunting money seems to be a big selling point for many apple drones.
Frame it as "America will decide what you can do with your phone" and people in Europe will listen.
Frame it as "the government will decide what you can do with your phone" and people in America will listen.
Frame it as "won't somebody think of the children" and everyone will listen.
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> Apple already does this and practically no one is outraged
Apple ran a very successful propaganda campaign where they portray themselves as the protectors and enforcers of a secure environment where users are safe from attacks from the wild internet. See Apple's spin on blocking cookies. Therefore, users of Apple products are conditioned to believe these measures exist for their own personal benefit, unlike Google which is presumed to be motivated to abuse your trust.
> It doesn't take much to convince them that Google et al don't have their best interests in mind. They already know it and have experienced it.
I think with Apple in particular, this is the issue. Apple have largely demonstrated that they _do_ often have the users best interests in mind (or at least at some point have had) on the basis that the users are Apple’s primary customers. Yes, Apple lock down iOS functionality but this has often been to deliver innovative features. Users don’t mind that they’re in a walled garden because, they like the walled garden.
This is where Google is a different case. Google’s interests are aligned with mass data collection rather than products people love. Most Google users have experienced how this impacts them negatively at some point, usually with the degradation of their products, and constant advert spam.
Google is an example of a company that the mass majority assumes to be in the wrong. Apple often isn’t.
Most people just do not think about this as much as we do.
We understand that, as the saying goes, if you're not paying for something then you are the product.
But less technical people don't consider that, and don't have hoards of technical friends to convince them otherwise. They just think: they using the product, so they're the user, right? We know that's true but it's not the same thing as customer. Most people don't have that distinction in their head.
It's even partially true that Google does want to do things that attracts and retains users, because that's a prerequisite for selling them to advertisers. In my experience, that's an upper bound on the amount of thought most non-technical people would give it.
>if you're not paying for something then you are the product.
It seems over the last decade that if you _are_ paying, you are still the product, you're just making more money for the people selling you.
Apple is the classic “good king”. By and large they have used their power in ways that benefit users. Other than enriching apple, there’s been no direct or apparent harm to the end user from the walled garden. I know that is a controversial point, but harms we don’t ever know about are pretty hard to get upset about.
But the “good” king never lasts. They’re always eventually replaced by a despot, and all the power you ceded to the “good” king falls into the hands of the bad king. Which is why ceding that power is a bad idea, and kings are a terrible system of government.
> Other than enriching apple, there’s been no direct or apparent harm to the end user from the walled garden.
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/society-equity/apple-...
I don't want to hear about how this isn't Apple's fault. This isn't the big bad orange man forcing Apple to act against its will; it's a business arrangement between Apple and the president. He gets censorship, they get a weaker EU.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/defe...
Please explain what makes them good? They make a better product than most, but they also charge more than most. That's just a business model.
For one thing, Apple has tended to focus on privacy at the expense of profit. Apple could certainly be monetizing all of their user data. Now more than ever. It's not just businesses that want your data to sell you stuff, it's the hyperscalers wanting to funnel it into AI training.
Apple is not perfect, by any means. I recently had a conversation with a former Apple employee about how they employ differential privacy internally. This former employee was upset about Apple's interpretation of one parameter ("privacy budget"), but the fact that we're having this conversation at all is a positive. Google, despite being an early adopter of differential privacy, is on the other side of the privacy spectrum: virtually everything they provide is intended to capture what you do on- or off-line.
I will pay a premium for Apple stuff for this, and other reasons. I do wish they were more developer-friendly, however. Enough so that every time I buy a new computer I have to run through the mental calculus of whether I'd rather fight with the cathedral or the bazaar. I recently bought a new computer and the cathedral won the last round.
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In this case i am using “good” to mean “not actively hostile towards users”. Yes they are more expensive, but many people are happy to pay a premium to get a premium product. Like going to a fancy restaurant and getting good food. Google’s version is like going to a less-fancy restaurant and getting less-good food but also they sell photos of you eating to TMZ.
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Their business model revolves around people to choose to pay them for products, which aligns them with customer interests on a fundamental level. They have to work within those constraints when they engage in lock-in chicanery
Most of the other big tech companies make their revenue from other companies paying them to leverage the influence they have over their users. So they are not constrained in the same way.
I believe that most Googlers are pretty aligned with the principles of the HN crowd, but Google the machine is not.
That's perhaps where the part about educating less tech-savvy folks comes in. There are even professionals in tech under the mistaken belief that Apple meaningfully adds value in exchange for one's freedom to use one's device as one chooses. Big Tech loves normalising the story how only they can help
And it was a huge mistake. The laws are the same for everyone. If Apple can do this then so can Google.
Apple doesn't own re-captcha. Apple's walled garden is still a tragedy but its a tragedy of willing participants.
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