Comment by KennyBlanken
13 hours ago
Online multiplayer games keep trying to allow linux users in and keep having to lock them out because there's an instant influx of cheaters.
The Nintendo Switch (which runs Linux) was a favorite of cheaters after jailbreaks came out.
When anyone can compile and run their own kernel with god knows what for modifications, that makes it substantially easier for cheaters and substantially harder for anti-cheat. I don't see that ever changing.
You can't rely on server-side detection either, because some of the cheats are so advanced they go to great lengths to "behave" like a highly skilled human player would with their aiming
The status quo's days are numbered. Online chess shows how.
An AI will play these games like a human but better. The AI can be totally separate from the windows box wearing anti-cheat ankle bracelets just as your brain a separate thing to the windows box when when you play. It can interact with the box via keyboard, mouse or controller.
No windows kernel module is useful in detecting and deterring chess cheating no matter how fanciful or factual the vibrating "device" stories are.
Anti-cheat by kernel module, it's day will be entirely done very soon if it isn't already.
"Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long?
Your argument appears to be nihilistic in nature: "don't bother fighting the cheating because it's inevitable." Forgive me, but I won't be giving up that easily. No anti-cheat is perfect, and we're not aiming for perfect. We're aiming for a reduction, and the harder we make cheating, the fewer cheaters there are. If cheating requires special hardware to mimic mouse and keyboard input, that significantly cuts down how many cheaters one will encounter in a given day. I have no doubt that the threat vector here widens and deepens as AI becomes more integrated into our operating systems. That does not mean we should give up or accept cheating as inevitable.
China solved this years ago with mandatory ID verification to play video games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-name_system_for_online_ga...
This was to prevent children from getting addicted but also leads to real life penalties for cheating in video games.
This a new and exciting use of the word "solved." I don't think I'm completely comfortable with it, possibly due to being raised on a diet of anti-soviet propaganda that spoke of such thing as "freedom" "justice", not sure if people care much anymore but there it is.
It never was fair to play vs computers in reaction games or skill games.
IE: Quakebots and Fighting games have perfect reaction times and perfect combos. They can simply block perfectly and counter attack perfectly and never drop a combo.
You act like cheating is new to video games??
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We never wanted bot in these games. Still don't want them today, and it's a big reason that playing on public boxes (ex: at an arcade or eSports tournament) is still a thing.
Defeating an opponent in a tournament is a big thing for fighting games. The risk of cheating online is always there so online tournaments are simply never taken as seriously (ie: as much $$$$ risked as real life tournaments).
> You act like cheating is new to video games??
No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.
7 replies →
> "Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long?
I don't want to beat a computer, I want to beat another person.
>The Nintendo Switch (which runs Linux) was a favorite of cheaters after jailbreaks came out.
If you're saying the Nintendo Switch system software is Linux-based, I don't think that's correct. It's a proprietary system based on a microkernel architecture.
It's proprietary, but they kit bashed a bunch of existing components (iirc, Android's surface flinger, the Nvidia embedded linux drivers, and the freebsd network stack)
I think it's a FreeBSD variant, if I remember correctly.
It's definitely not. Completely bespoke OS.
1 reply →
ps* is based on freeBSD, Nintendo is proprietary (though use OSS libraries)
Nintendo Switch does not run Linux, it runs a proprietary OS called Horizon based on the Nintendo 3DS firmware. Not sure but it might or might not have some BSD code in the network stack or something.
Pretty much everything uses BSD source code in the network stack, including Windows, so that much is a safe assumption, but there's far more that the Switch is using. According to the copyright notice, it uses the FreeBSD kernel. This tracks with reported use of BSD jails, which are part of the BSD kernel.
> You can't rely on server-side detection either, because some of the cheats are so advanced they go to great lengths to "behave" like a highly skilled human player would with their aiming
Shouldn't that be the goal of anti cheat? That cheating is indistinguishable from expert gameplay? Seems to me like these companies are just trying to avoid implementing proper infallible server-authoritative gameplay by offloading the cheat detection to the untrustworthy client, and then trying to lock down the client to make it trustworthy.
All these games already have an authoritative server. These cheaters aren't breaking the rules of the game by being invincible, super speedy, etc. they're aim-botting and wall hacking. Those cheats can't be prevented with authoritative networking.
I dont know what kind of authoritative server Apex Legend uses that let the infamous "Tufi" hacker do what he did for so long. IMO it should be trivial to ban someone hitting more than 80% of their shots as headshots,, dual weilding weapons that were never supposed to be dual-weilded. Charge rifle beam permanently shooting and swapping armors from miles away
why can't we prevent wall hacking by not sending packets of enemy players position if the user can't see them on their screen
4 replies →
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The Nintendo Switch runs a custom operating system codenamed HorizonOS.
I was going to say. There's no way Nintendo would be caught dead with GPL anything, even GPLv2.
What is the problem with cheating or bots really?
I feel that the solution is just to have a decent ranking/level system so that users play with other people, cheaters, bots or regular users of the same level. When I was playing mario kart with my 5y old daughter, I didn't mind she had access to helps to not run out of the road as it allowed us to play together. I don't see how different it is between say, a super skilled player, and a lower skilled player with cheat/assists. If cheating/assists system becomes so efficient, cheaters will just end up playing together and non cheater will have got rid of them and play between non cheater of similar level. Prolem solved. No?
People who are not naturally competitive (or who don't like competition) struggle to understand the drive. For many, competing against a computer is FAR less engaging or rewarding than against a person. Even if the person is less skilled than the computer. The human element - chance, variance in skill, emotions, etc - is very motivating for some people. The same people often like sports (which I do not). If you replaced every athlete in every competition in the Olympics with a robot, would you still find it as compelling? Some would, but many would not.
i am really doubting that Nintendo Switch uses Linux?... they would have to provide source code no?
Only to the kernel. And only if they patched it. Kernel modules don't count as patches. This is how myriad android vendors get out of providing source. But no, the switch doesn't use linux afaik.
And yet there's plenty of competitive multiplayer shooters that work fine on Linux. Rivals, The Finals, deadlock, CS2, Overwatch, Hunt Showdown, etc.
EA did a big announcement about switching to kernel level Anti-Cheat for Battlefield 6 to combat cheating, yet there's still plenty of cheaters around. It's looking more and more like an excuse in order to give the appearance of combating cheating.