What's your basis for assuming LLM is capable of doing this?
I honestly don't know personally either way. Based on my limited understanding of how LLMs work, I don't see them be making the next great song or next great book and based on that reasoning I'm betting that it probably wont be able to do whatever next "Descartes, Newton, Leibnitz, Gauss, Euler, Ramanujan, Galois" are going to do.
Of course AI as a wider field comes up with something more powerful than LLM that would be different.
Meanwhile, songs are hitting number one on some charts on Spotify that people think are humans and are actually AI. And Spotify has to start labelling them as such. One AI "band" had an entire album of hits.
Also - music is a subjective. Mathematics isn't.
And in this case, an LLM discovered a new way to reason about a conjecture. I don't know how much proof is needed - since that is literally proof that it can be done.
>> Meanwhile, songs are hitting number one on some charts on Spotify that people think are humans and are actually AI. And Spotify has to start labelling them as such. One AI "band" had an entire album of hits.
There is quite some questions around that. Music is subjective and obviously different people have different taste, but I wouldn't call any of them to be actual good music / real hits.
>> LLM discovered a new way to reason about a conjecture
I wasn't questioning LLMs ability to prove things. Parent threads were talking about building new kind of maths , or approaching it in a creative/artistic way. Thats' what I was referring to.
I can't speak for maths of hard science as I'm not trained in that, but the creativity aspect in code is definitely lacking when it comes to LLMs. May not matter down the line.
Good on you for spelling out this reasoning, but it is manifestly unsound. For a wide variety of values of X, people a few years ago had no reason to expect that LLMs would be capable of X. Yet here we are.
Except this has been said since the 2010's and has been proven wrong again and again. Clearly the theory that LLM's can't "extrapolate" is woefully incomplete at best (and most likely simply incorrect). Before the rise of ChatGPT, the onus was on the labs to show it was plausible. At this point, I think the more epistemologically honest position is to put the burden back on the naysayers. At the least, they need to admit they were wrong and give a satisfactory explanation why their conceptual model was unable to account for the tremendous success of LLM's and why their model is still correct going forward. Realistically, progress on the "anti-LLM" side requires a more nuanced conceptual model to be developed carefully outlining and demonstrating the fundamental deficiencies of LLMs (not just deficiencies in current LLMs, but a theory of why further advancements can't solve the deficiencies).
Incidentally, similar conversations were had about ML writ large vs. classical statistics/methods, and now they've more or less completely died down since it's clear who won (I'm not saying classical methods are useless, but rather that it's obvious the naysayers were wrong). I anticipate the same trajectory here. The main difference is that because of the nature of the domain, everyone has an opinion on LLM's while the ML vs. statistics battle was mostly confined within technical/academic spaces.
Funny that the replies are dead. It's true that generally we shouldn't have AI output on HN but this case is an exception as we are explicitly asking for it, so it's interesting that people still flag the replies.
And this is really not OK. I've been a victim of the same filter.
Dang/Tomhow, are you reading this? Would it make sense to modify your slop filter to avoid auto-flagging/killing replies that credit the LLM explicitly? Otherwise valid discussions will continue to get hosed.
You must be joking? Unless by combining words you mean digging deep into Latin and Greek etymology, finding something pithy and linguistically associative.
I can assure you, the percentage of people who can do what they do when it comes to crafting terms, and related sets of terms, for nuanced and novel ideas is very very small.
It happens this is something I do nearly every day.
Models respond to the level of dialogue you have with them. Engage with an informed perspective on terminological issues and they respond with deep perspectives.
I am routinely baffled at the things people say models can't do, that they do effortlessly. Interaction and having some skill to contribute helps here.
Because by definition LLMs are permutation machines, not creativity machines. (My premise, which you may disagree with, is that creativity/imagination/artistry is not merely permutation.)
I prefer to think of it as they’re interpolation machines not extrapolation machines. They can project within the space they’re trained in, and what they produce may not be in their training corpus, but it must be implied by it. I don’t know if this is sufficient to make them too weak to create original “ideas” of this sort, but I think it is sufficient to make them incapable of original thought vs a very complex to evaluate expected thought.
This "new math" might be a recombination of things that we already know - or an obvious pattern that emerges if you take a look at things from a far enough distance - or something that can be brute-forced into existence. All things LLMs are perfectly capable of.
In the end, creativity has always been a combination of chance and the application of known patterns in new contexts.
> This "new math" might be a recombination of things that we already know
If you know anything about the invention of new math (analytic geometry, Calculus, etc.), you'd know how untrue this is. In fact, Calculus was extremely hand-wavy and without rigorous underpinnings until the mid 1800s. Again: more art than science.
LLMs by themselves are not able to but you are missing a piece here.
LLMs are prompted by humans and the right query may make it think/behave in a way to create a novel solution.
Then there's a third factor now with Agentic AI system loops with LLMs. Where it can research, try, experiment in its own loop that's tied to the real world for feedback.
Agentic + LLM + Initial Human Prompter by definition can have it experiment outside of its domain of expertise.
So that's extending the "LLM can't create novel ideas" but I don't think anyone can disagree the three elements above are enough ingredients for an AI to come up with novel ideas.
What's your basis for assuming LLM is capable of doing this?
I honestly don't know personally either way. Based on my limited understanding of how LLMs work, I don't see them be making the next great song or next great book and based on that reasoning I'm betting that it probably wont be able to do whatever next "Descartes, Newton, Leibnitz, Gauss, Euler, Ramanujan, Galois" are going to do.
Of course AI as a wider field comes up with something more powerful than LLM that would be different.
"I don't see them be making the next great song"
Meanwhile, songs are hitting number one on some charts on Spotify that people think are humans and are actually AI. And Spotify has to start labelling them as such. One AI "band" had an entire album of hits.
Also - music is a subjective. Mathematics isn't.
And in this case, an LLM discovered a new way to reason about a conjecture. I don't know how much proof is needed - since that is literally proof that it can be done.
>> Meanwhile, songs are hitting number one on some charts on Spotify that people think are humans and are actually AI. And Spotify has to start labelling them as such. One AI "band" had an entire album of hits.
There is quite some questions around that. Music is subjective and obviously different people have different taste, but I wouldn't call any of them to be actual good music / real hits.
>> LLM discovered a new way to reason about a conjecture
I wasn't questioning LLMs ability to prove things. Parent threads were talking about building new kind of maths , or approaching it in a creative/artistic way. Thats' what I was referring to.
I can't speak for maths of hard science as I'm not trained in that, but the creativity aspect in code is definitely lacking when it comes to LLMs. May not matter down the line.
LLMs are already making the next great songs. Just check out the Billboard charts.
I'm sorry, I don't consider them "great songs". Obviously, different people have different taste.
[dead]
> what basis do you have for assuming an LLM is fundamentally incapable of doing this?
because I have no basis for assuming an LLM is fundamentally capable of doing this.
Good on you for spelling out this reasoning, but it is manifestly unsound. For a wide variety of values of X, people a few years ago had no reason to expect that LLMs would be capable of X. Yet here we are.
In 1989, Gary Kasparov said that it was "ridiculous!" to suggest a computer would ever beat him at chess.
"Never shall I be beaten by a machine!”
In 1997 he lost to Deep Blue.
2 replies →
This is something that could be demonstrated rather than just argued.
Train an LLM only on texts dated prior to Newton and see if it can create calculus, derrive the equations of motion, etc.
If you ask it about the nature of light and it directs you to do experiments with a prism I'd say we're really getting somewhere.
1 reply →
Except this has been said since the 2010's and has been proven wrong again and again. Clearly the theory that LLM's can't "extrapolate" is woefully incomplete at best (and most likely simply incorrect). Before the rise of ChatGPT, the onus was on the labs to show it was plausible. At this point, I think the more epistemologically honest position is to put the burden back on the naysayers. At the least, they need to admit they were wrong and give a satisfactory explanation why their conceptual model was unable to account for the tremendous success of LLM's and why their model is still correct going forward. Realistically, progress on the "anti-LLM" side requires a more nuanced conceptual model to be developed carefully outlining and demonstrating the fundamental deficiencies of LLMs (not just deficiencies in current LLMs, but a theory of why further advancements can't solve the deficiencies).
Incidentally, similar conversations were had about ML writ large vs. classical statistics/methods, and now they've more or less completely died down since it's clear who won (I'm not saying classical methods are useless, but rather that it's obvious the naysayers were wrong). I anticipate the same trajectory here. The main difference is that because of the nature of the domain, everyone has an opinion on LLM's while the ML vs. statistics battle was mostly confined within technical/academic spaces.
Ask an LLM to invent a new word and post it here. You will see that it simply combines words already in the training data.
Funny that the replies are dead. It's true that generally we shouldn't have AI output on HN but this case is an exception as we are explicitly asking for it, so it's interesting that people still flag the replies.
And this is really not OK. I've been a victim of the same filter.
Dang/Tomhow, are you reading this? Would it make sense to modify your slop filter to avoid auto-flagging/killing replies that credit the LLM explicitly? Otherwise valid discussions will continue to get hosed.
You must be joking? Unless by combining words you mean digging deep into Latin and Greek etymology, finding something pithy and linguistically associative.
I can assure you, the percentage of people who can do what they do when it comes to crafting terms, and related sets of terms, for nuanced and novel ideas is very very small.
It happens this is something I do nearly every day.
Models respond to the level of dialogue you have with them. Engage with an informed perspective on terminological issues and they respond with deep perspectives.
I am routinely baffled at the things people say models can't do, that they do effortlessly. Interaction and having some skill to contribute helps here.
* * *
Mathematics can be mostly boiled down to a few sentences with very lengthy possible combinations, so yeah that is not a problem
So LLM is german?
What does "new word" even mean?
[dead]
[dead]
[dead]
Because by definition LLMs are permutation machines, not creativity machines. (My premise, which you may disagree with, is that creativity/imagination/artistry is not merely permutation.)
I prefer to think of it as they’re interpolation machines not extrapolation machines. They can project within the space they’re trained in, and what they produce may not be in their training corpus, but it must be implied by it. I don’t know if this is sufficient to make them too weak to create original “ideas” of this sort, but I think it is sufficient to make them incapable of original thought vs a very complex to evaluate expected thought.
This "new math" might be a recombination of things that we already know - or an obvious pattern that emerges if you take a look at things from a far enough distance - or something that can be brute-forced into existence. All things LLMs are perfectly capable of.
In the end, creativity has always been a combination of chance and the application of known patterns in new contexts.
> This "new math" might be a recombination of things that we already know
If you know anything about the invention of new math (analytic geometry, Calculus, etc.), you'd know how untrue this is. In fact, Calculus was extremely hand-wavy and without rigorous underpinnings until the mid 1800s. Again: more art than science.
6 replies →
god of the gaps
non overlapping magisteria
What is creativity if not permutation? A brain has some model of the world and recombines concepts to create new concepts.
you have clearly never innovated in your life. so why post this nonsense?
2 replies →
It pretty much is, otherwise it is randomness or entropy.
LLMs by themselves are not able to but you are missing a piece here.
LLMs are prompted by humans and the right query may make it think/behave in a way to create a novel solution.
Then there's a third factor now with Agentic AI system loops with LLMs. Where it can research, try, experiment in its own loop that's tied to the real world for feedback.
Agentic + LLM + Initial Human Prompter by definition can have it experiment outside of its domain of expertise.
So that's extending the "LLM can't create novel ideas" but I don't think anyone can disagree the three elements above are enough ingredients for an AI to come up with novel ideas.
You're proving the GP's argument - LLMs aren't creative you say as much, it's the driving that is the creative force
6 replies →