Comment by kstrauser
3 days ago
WTF. These are some of the first things I clicked through on that page:
- https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534...
- https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534...
Gee, I can't imagine how that mailing list could ever be toxic.
If his definition of woke mind virus is "identitarianism", then it's agree that it's fucking awful. But I wouldn't call it "woke mind virus".
Identitarianism is a cancer, that has been fed via social media algorithms. We seem to have invented a machine for rewarding all of the wrong incentives. Who would have thought that phenomena like audience capture & polarised thought bubbles would be in the palm of the hand, directing thoughts and forming unbreakable opinions on an array of issues that otherwise wouldn't even be on the radar?
I don't think that this is a left, right or in between thing. Identitarianism had infected the entire political spectrum.
BTW: Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't take the Wikipedia definition of "identitarian movement" and identitarianism. I'm thinking entirely about identity politics. "If you're associated with person X you must be Y", or "If you believe A you must be a B". Highly policed thought bubbles. Ostracism. Cancelling.
As a result, today, with technology that can enable mass communication of thought, there are important conversations that can no longer happen in society.
Usage of the phrase "woke mind virus" is itself a symptom of identitarianism. Only identitarians use the phrase.
As your average progressive, I agree that I don’t like identarianism. When you have 8-15 years old putting a lot of effort into defining themselves as a “non binary, trans feminist pansexual” it gutturally feels wrong. These kids should not be wasting their time and energy on asinine pursuits like this at that age over performing well academically and over developing their physical prowess. I preferred the 00s where it was generally considered taboo to talk/ask about ethnicity/religion/sexuality.
Unfortunately with that perspective, I end in in the same camp as unabashed bigots and real Nazis.
Yep. This situation doesn't do the "cancellers" much good either. What they want to do is eliminate the 'evil person' from society. Wipe them from social media. Block them. Even get them fired. Make them disappear.
But here's the problem. This whole phenomenon is most prevalent in western style democracy. You cannot take that person's vote. You can engage with them and try to change their mind (but also be open to having your own mind changed too, otherwise it's a disingenuous enterprise). Or you can eject block and cancel. If anything, that just drives them further from your social/political group. Hence the person who you blocked and cancelled starts to look around at the other "so called evil people" outside the bubble, and realise that many of them might be refugees from pleasantville , just like you. You can only see your former bubble after your pushed or pulled out of it.
Bubbles can suck people in, but they can also push people out into the gravitational pull of other bubbles.
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This is blatantly false.
* You made the mailing list post on 22 Jan 2023.
* Elon Musk first used the phrase (on Twitter, at least) on 19 Dec 2021. [0]
* As of May 2022 at the latest, he was regularly using it in tweets, including ones with tens and hundreds of thousands of likes. [1][2][3]
* By the end of 2022, "woke mind virus" was well-known enough that other users were cracking jokes about it. [4][5]
[0] https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1472371245744373760#m
[1] https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1516600269899026432#m
[2] https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1526975113597489154#m
[3] https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1527356085090545664#m
[4] https://xcancel.com/ditzkoff/status/1602283284947427329#m
[5] https://xcancel.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/160521361079977984...
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Why is it always people like this who run projects that should be good? SimpleX, Xlibre, Freenet Locutus, that's three, and I'm sure there are more.
Edit: do they all like the letter X, too? I think in this list it's just a coincidence, but maybe?
Edit because I can't post a new comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46608061
Wild theory: maybe it's because in order to stay focused, passionate and dedicated to a project, you have to have a passionate mind dedicated to a narrower viewpoint. The more open-minded you are, the more likely you accept that detractors might have a point, and then increasingly realize that it's impossible to please everyone.
Disagreeable, passionate people are passionate about doing projects that go against the grain. It's really obvious to anybody actually asking the question instead of just being rhetorical and not giving it any actual thought. The answer is a commpetely obvious one, but one which makes some people uncomfortable, such that they'd rather not confront it, lest they have to confront its implications.
Thank you for putting me in such great company!
Not sure what you mean but I stand by every word I said in that thread.
A wise boss of mine, after reading a set of threads that I wrote like this, asked me to go think for a day on the difference between "being right" and "being effective."
Some of the things you say in these threads might be "right" but I can assure you that many of them are not effective, which is counterproductive to the goal you are trying to achieve.
I prefer to say what I believe to be true rather than live in fear of how people looking to take offense might misconstrue something.
A culture where people are expected to constantly self-censor to avoid bad-faith interpretations is unhealthy and corrosive.
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You can stand by things you said but also learn from them/from people’s responses to them…. For instance, you declare someone’s response virtue signaling… This hit me in a funny way, partly because it’s valid, it’s true, there is a lot of signaling that goes on you learn to see, virtue and otherwise… but also because of how insidious a criticism it is, because it reframes a debate away from correctness and towards who said it, whether they’re posturing…
I think it’s a category error and an ad hominem attack to bring it up in a debate with someone. It doesn’t mean your wrong or can’t still beleive they were virtue signaling, if that’s what you mean by standing by what you said, but more than one thing can be true and that being your reaction is not honest engagement with the criticism… I don’t care think it’s about the joke very much, it’s not especially funny but not all humor has to be, and I don’t love their reaction to it either, but I think you’re confusing the feedback you’re getting here and there and probably elsewhere that your opinions should change… a sibling comment spoke of being right vs effective, and there’s something to that, but there’s also being right vs having a growth mindset, about being open to genuine conflict that sometimes brings new perspective or insight… But that doesn’t happen when one side shuts down the other with ad hominem attacks or uncharitable assumptions. To be fair, it doesn’t happen online in mailing lists or discussion forums at all very often. Maybe you only get these kinds of reactions here and when people seem more real to you in person you engage differently… I know most people engage differently online than in person, and different pseudonymously than using real names. Someone else here compared you to Linus, and there’s probably something there? There’s no doubt you brought some vision and insight to both these projects, as he did, but something changed for him some years back that was a growth moment and caused him new perspective on how he engaged with people online. The same could still happen for you, and it wouldn’t mean you were giving in to a “woke mind virus”, it would mean you were growing.
I can’t respond to your response below but I fully agree “a lot of online criticism is not actually about truth-seeking or honest disagreement”, but I believe by ignoring the principle of charity, you undercut your own credibility and value. You may be able to show people how and where they’re in the wrong by demonstrating how THEY’VE made motive and framing the entire point, WITHOUT personally ascribing that as necessarily being a character weakness or hypocrisy or unconcern for the truth, but perhaps just a error on their part as well all make sometimes… just my $0.02
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I just want to quickly jump on what you said about Linus. I know a lot of people look at his change and see it as a "growth moment", but my view is that he was forced to change by a growing body of people who take relatively extreme actions against those not seen to be towing the line. There was another group of people like this in history. We rightly condemned that evil group and their actions, and we were once more tolerant and open-minded towards one-another as people. I miss those days.
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If you think this is a correct communication style for someone who thinks they're a leader, I suggest getting an assistant to write your correspondence, or maybe some socialisation bootcamp.
This is grim.
If you stand by it I'd say good.... luck, yeah, good luck, you're singlehandedly the gravest enemy of the project.
Yes, I stand by what I wrote. I'm not going to pretend otherwise because someone dug up an old mailing list post.
If you think a specific statement was wrong, harmful, or dishonest, then explain why. I'll wait.
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Holy shit. I’m a long-time admirer of freenet and you just single handedly destroyed any positive view of the project I may have held. Get a fucking grip and seek help if you can’t.
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> The woke mind virus, more formally postmodern neo-marxism, is the greatest threat to civilization today.
"The woke mind virus" really? You used that non-ironically? This is not something a serious or sane person would say for real.
You'd be surprised how mainstream these views are outside certain bubbles.
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So that's what this is about! I wish instead of dancing around the issues and coming up with reasons to hate the project, ppl would just say "I don't like his politics" and he can say "I don't like yours either" and then any new readers will instantly get it
Lol. It's like Linus but crunchier
I'm told I kinda look like him too. There are worse people to be compared to.
Curtis Yarvin is a much better comparison, what with the inscrutable decentralized network software and being a culture war crusader
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“crunchier”?
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